Final Fantasy XIII

[Mithrandir]

Why are you even playing RPGs?

I'm kind of wondering the same thing myself...

[Cloud500]

I still have no idea whether or not I'm going to get this tomorrow. Oh, decisions.....

[Whitefang]

Reviewers also liked Scribblenauts, Halo 3, Wii Fit, and Final Fantasy X-2.

Also an 83 on Metacritic is far from a shower of praise from reviewers. Not like, say, Super Mario Galaxy's 97.

Why are you even playing RPGs? If you want tunnels with nowhere to explore, go play Sonic and the Secret Rings. Exploring is as much a part of an RPG as statistics are. Also, Final Fantasy IV linear? Feel free to come back and join the conversation after you've gotten past Cagnazzo, because you clearly never went anywhere in the Underworld or on the Moon.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Everytime I beat Cagnazzo, I buy Silver equipment in Silvera, get the sleep sword from Eblan, and proceed on my way. Two areas does not in any way change how linear Final Fantasy IV is. And then there are 4 whole places to visit underground, and one secret shop on the moon and one secret monster boss (aside from the final dungeon's optional bosses). Give me a break, if that is the definition of non-linearity then I give up.

Secondly, I want to know how this statement

Nevertheless, my point is that if there is nothing to find by sidetracking, then there is no reason to include it in the game.

implies in any way that I should not play RPGs. I like side quests, and I never stated that I didn't. All I am saying is that if the programmers or the game designers could not think of anything to put on the side areas, why should I expect them to add some area of the game where I will be able to waste my time and earn nothing for doing so? That is my point.

Edit for clarity's sake: In other words, the development of the game can only go so far, and I suggest that any game be judged on its complete merits. If the sum total of the game is longer by focusing less on extras, then all it means is that the optional parts that I would have done anyway are now part of completing the game. To me, there is no difference in where the effort in creating the game has gone, and so there will be little difference in my time spent in the game.

Edit because I think I'm still unclear: I understand your arguments that RPGs should have these extra elements and that if necessary time should be devoted to adding them. I am simply advocating that it should either be done properly or not at all.

[Rocketshipper]

I think the main plot had a LOT of effort in it, just not in a sense of game mechanics (in other words, it was intriguing and well-written, but the people you play as really didn't do anything in it).

Part of my problem was that the story segments late game were so short! I mean, the "final dungeon" was like a handful of screens and a couple of boss battles at the most. The segment in the Draklor laboratory before you fight Cid wasn't much better. And I was very annoyed to have spent several hours trecking across three huge field areas on my way to Archades, only to have the following "story dungeon" section last like 15 minutes.

[Nate]

Two areas does not in any way change how linear Final Fantasy IV is.

Here's the maps of the Sylvan Cave and the Waterfall Cave.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/kaemmerite/Maps/final_fantasy_iv_sylvan.gif

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/kaemmerite/Maps/final_fantasy_iv_watery_cavern.gif

Those are two areas, right? Two small areas in the whole game, right? You spend maybe an hour in each of them. You would agree?

Here is the first SIX HOURS of game maps for FFXIII.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/kaemmerite/Maps/final-fantasy-xiii-extreme-linearit.jpg

Notice a difference? Like how the other places are actually interesting and have places to explore? And how the first SIX HOURS of this new game are literally one straight line? Oh, and the best part is the Waterfall Cave is like what, the SECOND place you go to in FFIV? And it's less linear than FFXIII!

Funny how you can't argue with picture evidence.

Give me a break, if that is the definition of non-linearity then I give up.

Well considering the definition of non-linearity is "not being a single straight line" then yes, that is the definition of non-linearity and nice to know that you at least know when to give up.

Secondly, I want to know how this statement implies in any way that I should not play RPGs.

Because it is the equivalent of saying "Man, Street Fighter shouldn't make you do a quarter-circle forward to do Ryu's fireball! That's stupid! It's a waste of time, there should just be a button to throw a fireball automatically!"

That's how RPGs ARE. They are about exploring. If you don't like exploring, which is inherently part of an RPG, why are you playing them? If you get angry when a game designer wants to enrich the game world and make it seem larger and better, why bother with the game? I could get angry every time a fighting game comes out and say "ARGH DOING DIRECTIONAL INPUTS TO DO SPECIAL MOVES IS STUPID" but then why am I playing fighting games? If I don't like having to aim a targeting cursor, why am I playing first person shooters?

That's why that statement implies you shouldn't play RPGs. Because you are complaining about something that has been in RPGs since the PEN AND PAPER days. Y'know, D&D? The thing that console RPGs are based on? The reason that games like Final Fantasy even EXIST?

If a DM tried to send any party that had even the slightest hint of experience through a dungeon that was literally one straight line, know what would happen? Everyone would say "You're a horrible DM, just quit now."

why should I expect them to add some area of the game where I will be able to waste my time and earn nothing for doing so? That is my point.

"Why should game designers try to enrich my experience or make me think that I'm in an actual living world? They should just say all caves are straight lines with one entrance and exit! Being immersed in a game isn't fun!"

Yes, I know that's a gross oversimplification of what you're saying. But I honestly can't imagine how boring every game I've played would be if every dungeon was just a straight line with no side paths. It'd almost be like...Final Fantasy XIII!

Edit because I think I'm still unclear: I understand your arguments that RPGs should have these extra elements and that if necessary time should be devoted to adding them. I am simply advocating that it should either be done properly or not at all.

If you seriously think Final Fantasy VI, basically considered to be the greatest Super Nintendo RPG and the greatest Final Fantasy, and even by some to be the greatest RPG of all time PERIOD hasn't done it properly? Then I say, again, WHY ARE YOU PLAYING RPGS?

(Though I disagree, I think FFV is the greatest Super Nintendo RPG. But I realize I'm the minority.)

[Cloud500]

Well I picked it up today. I was expecting a terrible game but so far it's actually decent. Will it measure up to the previous installments in the series? No, but it will most likely still be an enjoyable RPG.

[Radical Dreamer]

I can really only say one thing here, and then I'm out because I don't (and very likely won't, unless I become unspeakably rich XD) own a PS3 or an XBox, so I won't be able to actually play this game any time soon. But I don't really have a problem with the game developers trying something different here. I mean, let's face it: we have twelve fully-fledged numbered Final Fantasies (eleven if you don't count FFXI...I'm not sure how many do), and even more spin-offs and side-games. Basically, the developers for the Final Fantasy games have been doing the same thing for the past 20-30 years (the first FF came out in the...80s or 90s? Anyways). Variety is the spice of life! XD The game might have a more linear story angle, but the FF games have practically churned out quality non-linear games for a while now, and there are plenty of FF games in Squenix's arsenal to entertain people for a good long while.

Maybe the developers are just going for a new angle, or maybe they got lazy and did a totally crappy job. Maybe the story is really awesome and makes up for the lack of ability to explore. Or maybe the characters are really interesting. Who knows unless you play it?



Siiiggh I wish I couuulld. XDD

[Nate]

the FF games have practically churned out quality non-linear games for a while now

EXCEPT FOR 8.

Oh wait you're one of those freaks who liked 8. Therefore your opinion is irrelevant. ;D

[Straylight]

Well I've had a go on it for a bit. So far so good - the story, graphics and characters look nice. Only problem I've had so far is that I've been able to get through most battles simply by mashing the x button. Hopefully things will actually get challenging at some point.

[blkmage]

So now we have motivations that aren't pure speculation.

tl;dr:
1. Developing in HD is hard and we had to develop the engine, so it took extra long to develop it and couldn't put in side content in a reasonable amount of time and chose to focus on narrative, which is what most people care most about.
2. Now that we don't have to build the engine again, we can start adding all of that stuff we couldn't get in in future games, so everyone can stop lamenting about the future of Final Fantasy.

[Nate]

Oh I remember that garbage. "BAWWWWWWWWWWWW programming on the PS3 is HARD so we couldn't make towns! Woe is us!"

Oh wait, except the makers of every other RPG on the PS3 seem to have been able to do that just fine. Wow Square-Enix, you're really saying that Tri-Ace who made Star Ocean: The Last Hope is BETTER than you because they had actual towns and not tunnel map designs? And the icing on the cake is, the PS3 version came AFTER the Xbox 360 version, which means they put in LESS time than you guys did in Final Fantasy XIII!

So basically the statement is at best, a flat out lie because they were too lazy to do things right, or at worst, means the employees at Square-Enix are stupid incompetent morons.

[blkmage]

As someone who does program for a living, I'm willing to give developers the benefit of the doubt when they say some aspect of development is harder. There are tons of things that can affect resources and timelines for development.

"BAWWWWWWWWWWWW programming on the PS3 is HARD so we couldn't make towns! Woe is us!"

This and your Star Ocean comparison are flawed. No one said that programming on the PS3 is hard. Developing for HD is hard(er) and the 360 qualifies as an HD system. And why is it hard? Because they don't already have an engine for HD use. Also, engine development is hard, especially when you're trying to create one that's going to be used in all of your future games. You're effectively programming not only FFXIII but large parts of a bunch of your future games as well. Star Ocean used the Infinite Undiscovery engine, so your comparison sort of proves their point.

[Nate]

Okay, except there's one problem with your statement.

From the Ultimania Guide (published by Square-Enix themselves), there was this:

"The game’s linearity was just because depicting towns and so on like we did before was impossible to do on an 'HD' console – it was too much work."

So from here, they say that depicting towns is impossible on an HD console. In fact, you just proved MY point by saying the 360 is also an HD console, because there are PLENTY of games for the 360 that have towns and minigames. Blue Dragon, anyone? How about Star Ocean? Let's not forget the Tales games! This proves Square-Enix is either a bunch of liars or lazy so-and-sos.

I realize they had to make their own game engine. Though to be fair, maybe if they'd started working on a game engine for the PS3 instead of originally starting production for the game as a PS2 game, they could have finished it and still had time to do all these "impossible" tasks that everyone else has done.

Oh yeah, and Kitase also said that all the stuff they cut out was enough to be able to make an entire second game. Which means his statement about "Oh yeah we were focusing on STORY and couldn't be bothered with inconsequential elements" is a lie or incompetence because how could they cut out THAT much stuff if they were focusing on story so hard? Hey, maybe if they'd worked on doing TOWNS and NON-LINEAR MAPS instead of content that got thrown out like yesterday's garbage, they wouldn't look so lazy or dumb!

[Shao Feng-Li]

Too much tl'dr going on here.

I'll probably give it a try when it isn't $60.

[Mithrandir]

...how could they cut out THAT much stuff if they were focusing on story so hard? Hey, maybe if they'd worked on doing TOWNS and NON-LINEAR MAPS instead of content that got thrown out like yesterday's garbage, they wouldn't look so lazy or dumb!

I think they cut a bunch out because they were forced to release on the XBox 360, which doesn't use the BlueRAY disc and therefore can't hold as much data.


Just sayin' ...

[Nate]

Well the 360 version is already three discs and has less data than the PS3 version because it runs at a lower resolution.

Because now somehow swapping discs is a horrible sin against mankind and I'm not sure why. I remember Final Fantasy 8 having like four discs and everyone says that game is so great. Oh yeah and you only have to swap them like every 20-30 hours. If it was like the old PC games where you had to swap discs every ten minutes or something then yeah that would be annoying.

But I don't know. Whatever. Point still stands that they cut out so much content but still say they couldn't do towns because it would have taken too long/been too hard. Thus proving they're either lazy or incompetent.

[Cloud500]

After playing this game for three days, I can honestly say that it's pretty good. I wasn't as bothered by the linearity as much as I thought I would be. Yeah, you pretty much go in a straight line for a large portion of the game, but the world does open up eventually. I was really enjoying the battles and the narrative, so I didn't really care about the lack of exploration.

The lack of towns doesn't really bother me either. It kind of makes sense that you don't go around visiting towns as all of the main characters are fugitives of the law and everyone is constantly trying to kill them, so going into a heavily populated town would be like a death trap. Whether this is the case or the developers were just lazy or had difficuly with programming, these issues don't ruin the game.

The fact that you only control one character in battle wasn't a huge problem for me. The other party members are pretty competent and you can change the Paradigm system at any time during battle( you can customize it outside of battle) so you have some control of what they're doing. This isn't as complex as the Gambit system from XII, but it still works. Yes, it's game over if the player controlled character dies, but if you heal often and aren't reckless it won't happen much. If you do get a game over you can restart with all of your items and such right outside the area where you originally entered the battle. I really like this because you're never at risk of losing a lot of progress if you forgot to save earlier.

My only complaint would be the level caps. However, having the level caps requires you to use more strategy in battles rather than just grinding to become stronger. Although I don't like the level caps, it makes the game challenging.

[Bobtheduck]

Well the 360 version is already three discs and has less data than the PS3 version because it runs at a lower resolution.

Because now somehow swapping discs is a horrible sin against mankind and I'm not sure why. I remember Final Fantasy 8 having like four discs and everyone says that game is so great. Oh yeah and you only have to swap them like every 20-30 hours. If it was like the old PC games where you had to swap discs every ten minutes or something then yeah that would be annoying.

Well, MS charges an extra fee for every disc they licence for the 360. Probably because they don't want to give the impression of the PS3 having an advantage, so they try to keep their multiplats on 1 disc.

[Nate]

Yeah, you pretty much go in a straight line for a large portion of the game, but the world does open up eventually.

And again I state why should I be forced to play for multiple hours before the game becomes more than just "Press forward on the analog stick and mash X?"

It kind of makes sense that you don't go around visiting towns as all of the main characters are fugitives of the law and everyone is constantly trying to kill them, so going into a heavily populated town would be like a death trap.

Oh, okay, that makes sense. See I've only played games like Final Fantasy IV where your main character is a fugitive of the law. Or games like Final Fantasy VI where the main characters are the targets of a near-omnipotent god who can destroy towns with a point of his finger. Or games like Final Fantasy VII where the main character is part of a terrorist organization who is wanted worldwide. Or games like Final Fantasy IX where the main character is a thief who is wanted for kidnapping by a major...you see where I'm going with this? "Oh they're fugitives of the law" is not a good or even satisfying explanation because they've DONE that before in other games where you can go into towns!

so you have some control of what they're doing. This isn't as complex as the Gambit system from XII, but it still works.

So why not have ALL the characters AI controlled and you just watch them fight? It wouldn't be that complex, but it would work! That's not a satisfying explanation.

However, having the level caps requires you to use more strategy in battles rather than just grinding to become stronger. Although I don't like the level caps, it makes the game challenging.

I have heard from every single reviewer, even ones who LIKED the game, that battles are "Press X a lot." This does not classify as strategy or challenging.

[Cloud500]

I guess I was just saying that I am enjoying the game and the problems other people have with the game aren't bothering me personally. I'm not trying to say it's a masterpiece; very far from it. I was just giving my opinion. I'm not trying to make anyone like the game or force it on anyone. I realize it has a multitude of faults, but I still like it anyway. Everyone has different tastes and more or less toleration for certain things.

[Nate]

If you like it more power to you.

[Etoh*the*Greato]

I rented it. Actually, I'm kind of enjoying it. It lacks many of the traditional trappings of an RPG and for the most part I would be hesitant to even call it that. I'm enjoying the characterizations and the plot. I enjoy the combat more-or-less, but it's hard to call it RPG combat. You can control your team mates, but only in the sense that you set a "paradigm" or a team tactic.

I'm... finding it harder and harder to call this game an RPG though. An interactive drama would be more appropriate.

[yukoxholic]

Ahh, I just picked this game up today and cannot wait to start playing it! XD

[Solid Ronin]

'Reviewing the thread...Am I allowed to like this game?

Oh right, I have money...

Carrying on! I really really like this game thus far with only two major complaints:

1: The story is there but man it sure is taking its time to get going. Although it seems to be finally picking up the pace.

2: Great Roa! Am I the only one alarmed by the NORA "motto"!? "The army is no match for NORA!" ... Seriously! SERIOUSLY!? If I start a rag tag team of "?lovable?" youths I'll just throw my hands up in the air and come up the the motto "God Bless us we're trying!"

And before Andrew, Nate, or anyone else pounces on me for liking... nay. LOVING this game... Shut up.

[ShiroiHikari]

I will say one thing about this game: It's entertaining to watch someone else play it.

[Solid Ronin]

I'm... finding it harder and harder to call this game an RPG though. An interactive drama would be more appropriate.

I can only pray that Hope is the Origami Killer.

[Mithrandir]

I will say one thing about this game: It's entertaining to watch someone else play it.

That actually makes me feel better about it.

[Bobtheduck]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2BhfKeteh8&feature=related

This video shows that this game is, indeed, far too linear.

[Solid Ronin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2BhfKeteh8&feature=related

This video shows that this game is, indeed, far too linear.

...That mega beast is so going to die.

[Mithrandir]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2BhfKeteh8&feature=related

This video shows that this game is, indeed, far too linear.

Actually, that also made me feel better about it. XD