Bleach Speculation (Chapters 300+)

[Ingemar]

No 3: Aizen's mad hax skills. Aizen is an even bigger troll than Beatrice from Umineko no naku koro ni and that's saying a lot!

THIS is my main problem with the story. His shikai alone would make him pretty much undefeatable. If Aizen had only this ability and had a middling power level (like, say.... Byakuya?) he still could have done everything that he did up to outing himself in Soul Society. (Additionally, he could have come up with a more creative way of pwning Bankai Ichigo).

Bleach is suffering from a case of schizophrenia. It showed initial promise (to me) as a humorous series with an actiony take on the Bangsian fantasy concept. But it decided to become "Dragon Ball Z with dead people" and threw in an intellectual, cunning supervillain, bringing in the possibility of battles where the enemy has to be outthought rather than outfought.

But Kubo decided to stick with "Dragon Ball Z with dead people (and an even lower attrition rate)." A well written, cunning villain presupposes an equally cunning author, which time has proven, Kubo is not.

USE YOUR THOUGHTS TAITO, USE YOUR THOUGHTS.

As for how long this series will go on, there's a variety of possibilities
No 1: Aizen will put out some moar allies from his invisible hat.
No 2: Ichigo will use his new hollow form to fight Aizen and after a long epic fight he finally kills him, thus ending Bleach.
No 3: Aizen will enter the Soul King's Palace and Ichigo and pals will follow him thus beginning an entirely new arc with entirely new characters.
No 4: Aizen's bankai is a gigantic laza that allows him to pwn everyone.

No. 3 seems the most likely to me, because you don't go into detail about requiring a 0 division to protect (the world from) the King of Soul Society and not follow through on why it's important. No. 2 is more likely in the far distant future (presumably when I have a wife and three kids and am too busy to care about manga) and would require having Ichigo becoming a relevant character again. I mean, I think he's one of the blandest protagonists ever, but I feel like saying "HAY KIDS! REMEMBER WHEN ICHIGO WAS THE MAIN CHARACTER? NEITHER DO WE!!"

I've theorized that Aizen is secretly a Quincy (because he has that bespectacled intellectual in white thing going on), which aligns with his desire to be all powerful (which is why despite being the most powerful Shinigami he wanted to Hollowfy himself to become even more powerful) and gives him three powersets rather than just one (or two). I've also theorized that Aizen doesn't actually have a bankai as his shikai could create the illusion of a "flowing water type" zanpakutou and it's pretty hard to see how even more powerful his sword can be (assuming he follows the "bankai = shikai but bigger" formula that everybody but Ichigo has).

[ich1990]

It's probably too late to hope that he had any kind of reason for leaving people alive at the end of the Soul Society arc. The only way this could be funny would be if he really was so powerful that it didn't matter.

As much as I would approve of that being the case, that would open up another whole batch of questions, such as why Aizen went out of his way to build an army of Hollows if he can already own everyone and become the "god who sits in heaven" like he supposedly wants.

As it turns out, however, he did use subtlety and treachery. He went out of his way to get the Hogyoku, and he spent quite a bit of time building an army to oppose the Soul Society. This implies that he wasn't strong enough to kill his enemies on his own, thus making his latest disregard for basic strategy quite senseless. Then again, (as you said) his leaving Ichigo and Hitsugaya (and others) alive at the end of the Soul Society arc was quite senseless as well.

Eh...

[Yamamaya]

I wonder if the hyped Wonderweiss will be able to make a dent in the ranks of the SS.

But these days, hype in Bleach means absolutely nothing.

[Doubleshadow]

Oh, wow.

I totally didn't care for the majority of that chapter or for the one coming up. (-_-);

[Yamamaya]

It appears that next week we'll be going back to HM due to Shinji screaming for Ichigo to come save them and the last page which showed Ichigo running along the top of Las Noches.

I'm actually hoping that that annoying twit Hiyori will die. That way, at least the good guys will suffer one loss.

[Fish and Chips]

I cannot say just how disappointed I am going to be with Tite Kubo if Ichigo is the guy who manages to fight and defeat Aizen. It'd be enough to lower the series a whole letter grade (and Bleach is already pretty low by my estimation).

I know that Ichigo is the hero, and that Aizen is the villain, and so there has to be some kind of confrontation, but I just can't see Kubo make it work. There's no antagonist chemistry between Ichigo and Aizen. They met each other once, like 20+ volumes ago, and didn't so much as exchange actually meaningful dialogue. Aizen just snapped Ichigo's Bankai in half and left with the MacGuffin and his personal fan club in tow. Everyone else in the Soul Society has reason to know Aizen, to have trusted him, and ultimately to hate him for his betrayal. Ichigo is a guy who was just there. And nearly half the series later we're calling for Ichigo to approach and defeat the guy? What, is Ichigo on call service or something?

I'll admit, it would be hilarious if, as a plot point, the entire cast of Bleach was just using Ichigo for his Chosen One status to clean up all the messes they started, despite (or perhaps because of) his lack of involvement, but I hesitate to think Tite Kubo is that clever.

Not to mention the fact that Aizen is so brokenly powerful he can apparently oneshot any of his own generals (each of them individually taking several chapters to defeat by several Captain-level Shinigami), and we still haven't seen his Bankai. For that matter, if Kubo really wanted to troll everyone hard, how do we know everything since the Soul Society hasn't been under his Shinkai? Now that would actually be pretty impressive.

[Ingemar]

My guess is Kubo is hoping the readership will collectively die of a multiple brain aneurysms so that he doesn't have to resolve the plot.

No wait--that's my hope, not his.

What Fish and Chips mentioned in his penultimate sentence is plausible, but I don't find it the least bit impressive. To me it would reek of an Author's Saving Throw.

[Fish and Chips]

Allow me to mend my statement then. Rather than intending an apologetic retcon, I was thinking something more along the lines of Aizen actually having some sinister plot that required him to fool the entire Soul Society into fighting an army that didn't exist, including but not limited to him augmenting his own powers, for theatrical purposes. So the Arrancar, Espada, everything related with Hecto Mundo was all a huge ruse to get the good guys in a time and place of his choosing.

Granted, by this point I borderline refuse to think Tite Kubo would be capable of this kind of plot twist done well, but oh well.

[Yamamaya]

Well actually, Ichigo does have a reason to dislike Aizen.
No 1: He masterminded Rukia's capture and he was about to kill her at the end of the SS Arc
No 2: He took Orihime to HM.
That's enough reason for a protector like Ichigo to want to kill him. Not to mention that he's the mastermind behind all of the Espada. Perhaps Aizen will threaten to kill Rukia or something to provoke Ichigo.

To be completely honest, all this negativity regarding Bleach is getting a little old. I agree with much of it, but come on, it's an action shoeun series. All of them seem to go through trends like this.

[Ingemar]

Yes, Ichigo does have a reason to dislike Aizen, just like, say, Einstein has a reason to dislike Hitler.

That's not what F&C means by "no antagonist chemistry." Ichigo had all of ten seconds of interaction with Aizen before getting humiliated. Beyond that, Ichigo doesn't have any particular special animus towards Aizen (unlike, say, Ulquiorra and Grimmjow) and Aizen doesn't view Ichigo as a threat.

[TANGENT]If you want a good example of antagonist chemistry, watch the Korean film Oldboy. The protagonist doesn't even know who his enemy is and the chemistry still works.[/TANGENT]

[uc pseudonym]

To be completely honest, all this negativity regarding Bleach is getting a little old. I agree with much of it, but come on, it's an action shoeun series. All of them seem to go through trends like this.

Speaking for myself, I am negative partially because I wanted more out of Bleach. Do you remember when characters like Ishida and Urahara were foreshadowed by subtle and missable panels? Think back to when the overly lengthy Soul Society arc was revealed to be an intentional distraction for the sake of the plot twist. Or even when Hueco Mundo was a collection of mysteries instead of some disappointing answers.

All those things reflect a time when I hoped that Bleach would be part of a new generation of shonen. I thought that we were done with episodic fighting series that were made up as they went along, and I thought that perhaps we could expect the medium as a whole to evolve. One Piece, for example, has a solid overall structure if a somewhat segmented plot. Once they got underway, Naruto and Bleach seemed to have an overarching plot and some planning involved. But that eventually proved not to be the case.

I suspect I'm not the only one here. It's not so much that we really enjoy complaining about Bleach's shortcomings, the tone is a parental "Son, I am very disappointed in you."

For that matter, if Kubo really wanted to troll everyone hard, how do we know everything since the Soul Society hasn't been under his Shinkai? Now that would actually be pretty impressive.

I agree that it would be nice to see a plot twist that would actually require such massive deception. Right now I'm setting the bar lower: I would just like to see him use the ability for something other than not getting hit by attacks. For example, what if he just wanted to trick people into thinking he was arrogant enough to kill his subordinates, whereas he's actually fake-killing them while they're transported to safety?

While we're wishing, it would be an interesting twist if he had killed a bunch of people during the Soul Society arc and half of the good guys are actually illusions. Turns out, people do die in Bleach, we're just going to find out about all of them at once in a single chapter.

Yes, Ichigo does have a reason to dislike Aizen, just like, say, Einstein has a reason to dislike Hitler.

Though if there was an Einstein vs Hitler manga, I would read it.

[GeneD]

For example, what if he just wanted to trick people into thinking he was arrogant enough to kill his subordinates, whereas he's actually fake-killing them while they're transported to safety?

While we're wishing, it would be an interesting twist if he had killed a bunch of people during the Soul Society arc and half of the good guys are actually illusions. Turns out, people do die in Bleach, we're just going to find out about all of them at once in a single chapter.

Another interesting situation would be if the illusion is that the "epsada" that soul society have been fighting are actually some of their own people, who in turn also think they've been fighting espada.

[Yamamaya]

Yes, Ichigo does have a reason to dislike Aizen, just like, say, Einstein has a reason to dislike Hitler.

That's not what F&C means by "no antagonist chemistry." Ichigo had all of ten seconds of interaction with Aizen before getting humiliated. Beyond that, Ichigo doesn't have any particular special animus towards Aizen (unlike, say, Ulquiorra and Grimmjow) and Aizen doesn't view Ichigo as a threat.

[TANGENT]If you want a good example of antagonist chemistry, watch the Korean film Oldboy. The protagonist doesn't even know who his enemy is and the chemistry still works.[/TANGENT]

It would be relatively simple to develop this chemistry by giving them a few chapters to fight and have a bit of dialogue amongst each other. After all, Aizen is pretty much the opposite of Ichigo. Ichigo merely wishes to protect everyone, while Aizen sees everyone as a possible tool to use in his little game.

I understand your concerns uc. However with a lot of long running action shoenun, it's pretty inevitable that things will go downhill. Plotwise, shorter shoenun action animes tend to be far superior.

That being said, most people are craving to see Ichigo's new hollow form take on Aizen(as am I.) In shoenun, the quality of the fight scenes are just as important as the plot itself(and there is a large amount of potentional for an Ichigo vs Aizen fight.)

[Fish and Chips]

It would be relatively simple to develop this chemistry by giving them a few chapters to fight and have a bit of dialogue amongst each other. After all, Aizen is pretty much the opposite of Ichigo. Ichigo merely wishes to protect everyone, while Aizen sees everyone as a possible tool to use in his little game.

No, see, it wouldn't. Antagonistic chemistry is what drives the protagonist against the antagonist in the first place, or vice versa. By the climax of the story, this is already set in stone. You can chip away a little further at the stone by the climax, sculpting something a little more nuanced , but you can't just construct it right there. That's poor writing, and arguably even worse planning (depending on the audience).

Saying Aizen is the opposite of Ichigo doesn't do much for me either. So is everyone in the Soul Society.

Echoing UC's sentiments, it really is more like disappointment than anything else. I enjoyed the first few volumes of Bleach, despite their somewhat formulamatic style. It started off strong (if episodic), kind of a Japanese Ghostbusters, and then we got the Memories in the Rain arc, which was thoroughly excellent. Then to top it off, after losing just a little steam with the early quincy arc, Tite Kubo even went and pulled one of my favorite character devices with Renji and Byakuya (cocky younger bad guy, aloof older bad guy double-team). Rukia was captured! Something fishy is going on! It was time to go to the Soul Society where-

Nothing happens, and a villain Ichigo has never even seen before succeeds in his master plan anyway, salted and peppered with a ton of cool fights you don't get to see because they don't have Ichigo in them. Followed by an immediate return to the real world heralded by a boatload of new bad guys and good guys from literally nowhere (a recurring theme for Kubo), at the expense of all previously established characters.

If I'm complaining, it's because I see missed opportunity after missed opportunity. Bleach could have easily been a defining example of Shounen done right in its younger days. Now everything is rehashed with too many characters not doing enough.

[Yamamaya]

But when you think about it, there wasn't a huge amount of antagonistic chemistry between Ichigo and Grimmjaw. There wasn't really a reason for Ichigo to fight Grimmjaw other than the fact that Grimm pwned him twice and tried to kill Rukia once. The buildup was the only thing that counted for chemistry between these two.

Same goes with Ulquiorra. Only thing Ulq did was kidnap Orihime and get under Ichigo's skin a bit.

Ichigo has also shown he doesn't need a massive reason to fight someone.

His response to Ulquiorra, "I won't fight you since you haven't hurt my friends."
Ulquiorra, "What if I told you I'm the one who kidnapped Orhime?"
Ichigo, "DIE!"

[Fish and Chips]

I can't remember ever saying Ichigo had particularly good antagonistic chemistry with the Espada either (or perhaps anyone really, except Grand Fisher, making me dislike Kubo even more), but then again I don't care much for the Espada. If you want to talk about them, bring it up with Ingemar.

[Ingemar]

Oh Fish, if Kubo wanted to develop any kind of interpersonal relationship between characters in the series, he'd have to do it at the expense of the seven million others waiting for their brief shot at the limelight.

[Yamamaya]

Oh Fish, if Kubo wanted to develop any kind of interpersonal relationship between characters in the series, he'd have to do it at the expense of the seven million others waiting for their brief shot at the limelight.

I have to respectfully disagree.

Case in point Ichigo and Rukia. Quite a lot of time has been dedicated towards developing their relationship.

[Fish and Chips]

I have to respectfully disagree.

Case in point Ichigo and Rukia. Quite a lot of time has been dedicated towards developing their relationship.

Which is why Rukia plays such a crucial role in the current plot.

[Yamamaya]

Which is why Rukia plays such a crucial role in the current plot.

The focus isn't on her atm it's on the rest of the SS and Orihime.

This argument is just going in circles. In this situation I'll think we'll have to agree to disagree.

[uc pseudonym]

I understand your concerns uc. However with a lot of long running action shoenun, it's pretty inevitable that things will go downhill. Plotwise, shorter shoenun action animes tend to be far superior.

That being said, most people are craving to see Ichigo's new hollow form take on Aizen(as am I.) In shoenun, the quality of the fight scenes are just as important as the plot itself(and there is a large amount of potentional for an Ichigo vs Aizen fight.)

I think problems in long form shonen are inevitable only with bad writing, and while I like a good fight scene for its own merits, I don't think action is equally weighted with plot (and definitely not to plot-supported action). Agreeing to disagree will be fastest here.

then we got the Memories in the Rain arc, which was thoroughly excellent

You know, I had almost entirely forgotten about this because of how much the followup to it disappointed me. Following a strong emotional arc we got a glimpse into the Hollow world and a hint of things to come... except those things turned out to be a few Arrancar that got one-shotted without serving much purpose. Grand Fisher is probably the clearest case of bad planning.

The atmosphere of that arc really is different from the series starting with Soul Society. I was hoping that Aizen's army of Hollows would be a return to form and bring back some of the themes from the beginning of the series. If the plot of Bleach had evolved along these lines, I would be very curious to see where it would go.

[Doubleshadow]

So, the most activity seen in this thread in a long time is a collective expressing of disappointment and low expectations. Interesting.

On the other hand...

Though if there was an Einstein vs Hitler manga, I would read it.

8D

[Yamamaya]

So it appears Ichigo has come full circle from the first time he fought Yammy. Once again, he is depressed and simply feels a strong desire to kill something.

Also, if Kubo is going in the direction of having Ichigo fight Aizen then if Ichigo pwns Yammy it will prove he has what it takes to take him on.

[Garjzla]

i must say i am just completely fed up with ichigo, he is not even that good of a man character, sure he has his moments and Kubo draws him all BA, but i just dont like his personality type. I wish one of the secondary characters was the main one, o well. I still love bleach, but i think it is for secondary characters like hitsugaya and byakyua

[Yamamaya]

*prevents myself from flaming hitsugaya fans*

[Garjzla]

*prevents myself from flaming hitsugaya fans*

what do you have against him?

[Yamamaya]

Because if you're going to bash Ichigo, you're also going to have to bash Toshiro. Both of them use plotkai and they hog quite a bit of screentime. Also both of their personalities are tailor made to attract fans.(Ichigo's BA and rebelious nature, Hitsugaya's cool personality.)

Toshiro is extremely overhyped. Even as a character he isn't that incredibly interesting. He's just a cold, relatively intelligent boy, with not a great deal of ambition. In addition, at least Ichigo is willing to break the rules of the SS. Toshiro is pretty much bound by the medieval traditions of the SS.

[goldenspines]

Because if you're going to bash Ichigo, you're also going to have to bash Toshiro. Both of them use plotkai and they hog quite a bit of screentime. Also both of their personalities are tailor made to attract fans.(Ichigo's BA and rebelious nature, Hitsugaya's cool personality.)

Toshiro is extremely overhyped. Even as a character he isn't that incredibly interesting. He's just a cold, relatively intelligent boy, with not a great deal of ambition. In addition, at least Ichigo is willing to break the rules of the SS. Toshiro is pretty much bound by the medieval traditions of the SS.

That's the second pun concerning Hitsugaya you've made in this thread. I'm impressed.
In all honesty, since his power is ice, being "cold" should be a given in personality.

While we're on the subject of Ichigo/Hitsugaya comparison though, Hitsugaya has better hair.

Okay, that is all, please continue with your discussing. ^_^

[Yamamaya]

That's the second pun concerning Hitsugaya you've made in this thread. I'm impressed.
In all honesty, since his power is ice, being "cold" should be a given in personality.

While we're on the subject of Ichigo/Hitsugaya comparison though, Hitsugaya has better hair.

Okay, that is all, please continue with your discussing. ^_^

Although it would certainly break the mold if was a hothead with ice abilities.

Ichigo's hollow form has got pretty hardcore hair which absolutely pwns Toshiro's hair do.

[Ingemar]

Ichigo's new hollow form is more hilarious than "B.A." Seriously. All that hippie hair and the obvious parallels to Goku's SSJ3 form (plus the gratuitous homicidal mania?) Also those... um... keratinized projections on the sides of his head lead to some rather unfortunate nickname potential.

No, I am not explaning it to you. Figure it out for yourself and once you do, keep it to yourself.