First chapter of a novel I'm writing

[bigsleepj]

I have bad grammar. But that aside, what do you think of this excerpt from my a book I'm writing? Some of you may have read it somewhere, and I know it needs a lot of work, but what are your thoughts?

Chapter One

“Do you see that building, mister Rommel,â€

[Esoteric]

Bad grammar? Heh, join the club. There were some awkward sentences...primarily from inapropriate shifts in tense, but grammar aside...

I like it. It has a good strong 'film noir' feel, and I like how the situation unravels. The thought monologue is fairly logical, although there were a few things I was wondering.

I was agitated, but did not feel like arguing the point.

Before reading this line, there was absolutely no indication of Rommel being agitated or why. I suggest moving this line to the end of the paragraph...it will make more sense there.
[quote]“How do I know you will not shoot me in the back?â€

[bigsleepj]

Thanks for the reply.

Bad grammar? Heh, join the club. There were some awkward sentences...primarily from inapropriate shifts in tense, but grammar aside...

Can I have a T-shirt? What's the club's T-shirt slogan say. ]I like it. It has a good strong 'film noir' feel, and I like how the situation unravels.[/QUOTE]

Thank you.

Before reading this line, there was absolutely no indication of Rommel being agitated or why. I suggest moving this line to the end of the paragraph...it will make more sense there.

Thank you for the tip. I might just do that (meaning I wil certainly do it).

Situations like these? Does this happen often?

He's sort of the main recurring character in my stories, so yes, kooky adventures happen all the time. ]This comment comes as bit a shock, especially considering his agitation. If this happened a lot, you'd think Rommel would be the one acting more...political. [/QUOTE]

Or at least act like this is nothing new. Good observation, though.

Again, confusion about how often stuff like this happens to Rommel. There's a previous reference to an office job, which makes me think that his normal life is pretty mundane. I'm having trouble meshing the facts together. Also the humorous self pity takes away from the drama of the chase a bit. Perhaps he should make that comparison later...in the church.

Rommel is a detective, but his basic detective work is very monotonous by default, since it usually involves alleged insurance scams and debt. The facts refered to at times would be fleshed out in the coming chapters. So far it's just meant to be your run-of-the-mill oblique "cold opening".

I like how the policeman says he'll go for the legs, but then shoots 'past his ears'. It helps create the uncertainty of trust. I like how Rommel makes it to 'stalactite' and the priest does not look pleased with the trouble that's now entered his life. I am very curious to know where the story goes...and how the Blue Dragon ended up in Rommel's pocket.

That's a whole lot of plot that will be filled in when I'm finished with the story. I've written about 80 000 words so far, but recently I've begun to revamp the novel because I've changed certain details of the plot. The overhaul is going to affect the ending so I can't just write the ending and rewrite it later.

Can you humour me with another question: What is your oppinion of my style? Some say it is too wordy; would you agree?

Thank you.

[Esoteric]

Can I have a T-shirt? What's the club's T-shirt slogan say.

Well, I don't think the club has actually decided...they can't all agree on how to word it, but my version would be, "Unite Grammerers' Bad".

Rommel is a detective, but his basic detective work is very monotonous by default, since it usually involves alleged insurance scams and debt. The facts refered to at times would be fleshed out in the coming chapters. So far it's just meant to be your run-of-the-mill oblique "cold opening".

Ah yes, a detective...that makes sense. Okay. I think if you just tone down the "Why is this happening to me?" sentiment, it should 'read' much better. After all, as a detective, he's always putting his nose in other's people's problems...sniffing out trouble. Sure, he may have been set up this particular time, but he's not exactly some completely innocent bystander, if you know what I mean. He can still be plenty confused, ("How did this happen? I never imagined anything like this!") And he can still be plenty scared, ("I never will get used to being shot at!"). But yeah, does that make sense?

Can you humour me with another question: What is your oppinion of my style? Some say it is too wordy; would you agree?

It's funny but I've been told my writing is wordy as well...mostly because I tend to write really long sentences. Your writing did not strike me as particularily wordy. It was highly visually in terms of its descriptions, and for the most part, I like the choice of words used. Then again, my vocabulary tends to be a touch more sophisticated than that of my peers.
But you will encounter all kinds. Some people like plain speak. Some want words they need to look up in a dictionary.

Perhaps to some extent, the 'wordiness' may be a result of grammar issues. An awkward sentence can seem overly choppy and 'wordy' because it is difficult to read. (If you wish me to point out a few of them, I will.) But one thing I've found that helps is reading passages aloud. If I have trouble reading a sentence out loud, others definitely have trouble reading it mentally. Even better, have someone else read aloud while you listen -you'll be able to glimpse how other people are perceiving your work.
The only other advice concerning wordiness I can offer is that, "One carefully selected descriptive word can do the work of three less specific ones. Again I liked your descriptions, but it never hurts to economize if you can lessen the 'bulk' without losing the 'flavor'.

I definitely see potential in your story and I hope you complete it.

[bigsleepj]

:lol: Well, I don't think the club has actually decided...they can't all agree on how to word it, but my version would be, "Unite Grammerers' Bad".

Cool! ]Ah yes, a detective...that makes sense. Okay. I think if you just tone down the "Why is this happening to me?" sentiment, it should 'read' much better. After all, as a detective, he's always putting his nose in other's people's problems...sniffing out trouble. Sure, he may have been set up this particular time, but he's not exactly some completely innocent bystander, if you know what I mean. He can still be plenty confused, ("How did this happen? I never imagined anything like this!") And he can still be plenty scared, ("I never will get used to being shot at!"). But yeah, does that make sense?[/QUOTE]

Well, in the next chapter we find out that he was on vacation when this happened, which explains why he's kind of upset and confused. He did not go looking for trouble, it literally fell into his lap at what seems at that moment random. But still, it does not read well and I should tone it down.

It's funny but I've been told my writing is wordy as well...mostly because I tend to write really long sentences. Your writing did not strike me as particularily wordy. It was highly visually in terms of its descriptions, and for the most part, I like the choice of words used. Then again, my vocabulary tends to be a touch more sophisticated than that of my peers.

I like sophisticated vocabulary too, but not always. There are limits.

Perhaps to some extent, the 'wordiness' may be a result of grammar issues. An awkward sentence can seem overly choppy and 'wordy' because it is difficult to read. (If you wish me to point out a few of them, I will.) But one thing I've found that helps is reading passages aloud. If I have trouble reading a sentence out loud, others definitely have trouble reading it mentally. Even better, have someone else read aloud while you listen -you'll be able to glimpse how other people are perceiving your work.

Those sound like good ideas. I should try them sometime.

The only other advice concerning wordiness I can offer is that, "One carefully selected descriptive word can do the work of three less specific ones. Again I liked your descriptions, but it never hurts to economize if you can lessen the 'bulk' without losing the 'flavor'.

I find myself trimming irreverant words and phrases sometimes when I rewrite. Although I don't mind being wordy, I try to make my sentances descriptive but also, to a degree, clear. I like complex discriptions, but I don't want to stare three years from now at a sentance and wonder "What did I really mean there?" ]I definitely see potential in your story and I hope you complete it.[/QUOTE]

Thanks. I hope so too. I've set myself a deadline; if I don't finish it by the end of the year, I'll never finish it. That may sound like enough time, but I'm an A-Class procrastinator.

[Photosoph]

The story sounds interesting so far -the last sentence: "I have, after all, the Blue Dragon Diamond in my coat pocket." definitely makes me curious as to what will happen next.

I agree with a lot of the comments both of you have made; I hope you don't mind if I make some of my own. ^_^"

I think the elements of the plot that have been revealed so far opint to this story being an excellent detective-type novel. I love the idea of 'sanctuary' at the church, too. It's a unique idea, and I'm intrigued to see how his confinement to the building will play out through your novel.
I do have some constructive critism, though. Hope you don't mind if I point a few things out. ^_^"

Jumping from past to present, though some people may frown on it, is fine for this sort of novel. However, it still seems a bit choppy. I think that some of the sentences could be left in the past tense, or rephrased to fit into it, and the others... I'm not sure, but I think it just tends to jump quite quickly from present to past. Perhaps you could change the order of things around so you might have a paragraph that goes back to the present, before switching back to the past, rather than mixing the tenses together in the same paragraph. I'm sure there are other ways to do it that would probably be better; that's just a suggestion.

The opening, while good, didn't really catch me. It's not a bad opening, it's just that I've been told before that it's best to try to make an impact in the opening sentences/paragraph of a book. Opening with a comment on architecture doesn't quite achieve that. ^_^"

Well, in the next chapter we find out that he was on vacation when this happened, which explains why he's kind of upset and confused. He did not go looking for trouble, it literally fell into his lap at what seems at that moment random. But still, it does not read well and I should tone it down.

Perhaps you could put that in somewhere -even in those words: 'trouble'...'fell into his lap'. I think that sounds like a good description to put in this first part of your story.


Aside from that, excellent drama, especially with the strained trust between the policeman and Rommel. I think what you've written sounded good so far, but just could be made to read a bit smoother. Good writing, BSJ. ^_^

Oh, and as for the dealine... doing Nanowrimo helped me to get into a routine of trying to write a set amount of words on a story per day. That might work for you too. ^_^
And if you don't finish in a year, seriously: don't worry. You may come back to your story later and get back to it then.

[bigsleepj]

The story sounds interesting so far -the last sentence: "I have, after all, the Blue Dragon Diamond in my coat pocket." definitely makes me curious as to what will happen next.

A whole dang lot. Take it from me. ]I agree with a lot of the comments both of you have made; I hope you don't mind if I make some of my own. ^_^"[/QUOTE]

What? How dare yo.... I mean, I'm glad to hear your comments.

Jumping from past to present, though some people may frown on it, is fine for this sort of novel. However, it still seems a bit choppy. I think that some of the sentences could be left in the past tense, or rephrased to fit into it, and the others... I'm not sure, but I think it just tends to jump quite quickly from present to past. Perhaps you could change the order of things around so you might have a paragraph that goes back to the present, before switching back to the past, rather than mixing the tenses together in the same paragraph. I'm sure there are other ways to do it that would probably be better]

I'm not sure what you're referring to here. If I jump between tenses, then it's bad English that I'd have to fix. If you mean however the structure, then I've covered that in a coming answer.

The opening, while good, didn't really catch me. It's not a bad opening, it's just that I've been told before that it's best to try to make an impact in the opening sentences/paragraph of a book. Opening with a comment on architecture doesn't quite achieve that. ^_^"

I began with the discription of the cathedral because I regard it as a central character of the book, even if it is an inanimate structure. Practically the whole story is set there. I can't think of opening it any other way]Perhaps you could put that in somewhere -even in those words: 'trouble'...'fell into his lap'. I think that sounds like a good description to put in this first part of your story.

Maybe I can. I'll have to think of applying this. *thinks*

Aside from that, excellent drama, especially with the strained trust between the policeman and Rommel. I think what you've written sounded good so far, but just could be made to read a bit smoother. Good writing, BSJ. ^_^

Define smooth read.

And if you don't finish in a year, seriously: don't worry. You may come back to your story later and get back to it then.

I've been writing this story since 2004. I want to actually eventually move on to other stories. That's my main reason for the deadline. Simple as that.

[Photosoph]

Ah, I see. ^_^

By 'tenses' I mean the present and past tense. Sometimes he talks as though looking back on it from a 'now' point of view, while the rest of the story is set in the past tense.

That's cool about your reasoning for the cathedral, especially if it's a major part. But even if you want to get to it quickly, you could start it with a motion of some sort. Perhaps 'Two pairs of boots crunched down. Small gravel stones scattered away, skittering across the concrete path. (Insert something about the tense situation here, like: 'It felt unnatural to stop when his fate hung in such a precarious position').
Just something like that was what I meant.

Hmm... 'smooth read' is when the sentences flow together well. Basically what Eso was talking about. Reading sentences aloud, as she suggested, can help you see if the words and sentences flow well into one another. That's kind of what I'm talking about. ^_^"

Ah, now I see about the deadline. That's cool. ^_^ It's good to move onto other things.

And I hope me pointing out these things hasn't discouraged you in any way. ^_^" I know that criticism, even constructive criticism, can often get me and other people down about their work. But what I've read is good; I was just offering some pointers. Though I've only read this first part of your story, so far (as I think I've already said, so sorry if I'm repeating myself ) I've enjoyed reading it, and the questions left unanswered look to be setting the stage (gah; my head's kinda fuzzy. Not sure if I'm using quite the right lingo or expressing myself properly. Hope you can still tell what I mean) for some interesting events to come. ^^

[bigsleepj]

Ah, I see. ^_^

No you don't!! You don't!! *runs into a corner and sulks*
[size=0](and that concludes our random bit of pointless melodrama for today)[/size] ]By 'tenses' I mean the present and past tense. Sometimes he talks as though looking back on it from a 'now' point of view, while the rest of the story is set in the past tense.[/QUOTE]

Ah. That's deliberate. The (unsaid) idea is that Roger is telling this from the point of view of retirement, so at times his thoughts reflect what he thought in the past and at times what he thinks in retrospect. I never thought this kind of writing POV would be an issue; quite frankly, without me imagining Roger sitting somewhere and writing the story he's telling somewhere I can't write from a first person. Although it has little do with the story I need to see them in some kind of space, even if I don't refer to it at any point. I hope this makes sense.

That's cool about your reasoning for the cathedral, especially if it's a major part. But even if you want to get to it quickly, you could start it with a motion of some sort. Perhaps 'Two pairs of boots crunched down. Small gravel stones scattered away, skittering across the concrete path. (Insert something about the tense situation here, like: 'It felt unnatural to stop when his fate hung in such a precarious position').
Just something like that was what I meant.

I understand your objection entirely]Hmm... 'smooth read' is when the sentences flow together well. Basically what Eso was talking about. Reading sentences aloud, as she suggested, can help you see if the words and sentences flow well into one another. That's kind of what I'm talking about. ^_^"[/QUOTE]

Yes, there's still a lot of "fixing" to do to make it flow naturally. Sometimes a writer can miss these things, and it's frustrating when you pick it up later. I'll have to pay special attention to this and fix it. I sometimes bungle my English, and my all-purpose prefabricated excuse is that it's my second language.

And I hope me pointing out these things hasn't discouraged you in any way. ^_^"

Heavens, no! It'll take more than constructive criticism to get me down.

[quote="Photosoph"]I know that criticism, even constructive criticism, can often get me and other people down about their work. But what I've read is good]

Nothing wrong with your 'lingo'. You're coming through as clearly as rain through my curtains (don't ask). I really appreciate your insights and objections, and you've raised a lot of things to consider, like the one about the two tenses.

[goldenspines]

Hmmm...it's very interesting so far. I have no crits or tips other than the ones that have been mentioned.
I look forward to seeing more. ^^

[Esoteric]

You two have no idea how much fun I had reading your posts. hehe, wow. Okay! *clears throat*

Ah. That's deliberate. The (unsaid) idea is that Roger is telling this from the point of view of retirement, so at times his thoughts reflect what he thought in the past and at times what he thinks in retrospect.

Really. I felt no indication that this was a memoir which happened a long time ago. Past tense is the standard tense for writing stories, even when they are supposed to happening at that moment. In order for this to seem like a memoir, the narration would have to be a lot stronger and frequently remind the reader of the time gap by adding comments and reflections...effectively skewing the information through the narrator's point of view. And may I add that's often a much harder thing to do.

I never thought this kind of writing POV would be an issue; quite frankly, without me imagining Roger sitting somewhere and writing the story he's telling somewhere I can't write from a first person.

Wha? ...(Bad grammar alert) Well, sufficive to say, POV is extremely important. I think you're doing a fine job of first person. It has it's limitations, yes, but for a mystery story, the pros outweigh the cons. And just because you must imagine yourself listening to Roger(Rommel?) in order to write the story, doesn't mean that actually has to be the situation. Just make sure the tense is consistent and that he doesn't throw in any comments which are clearly retrospective.

Frankly the only tense problems I've seen are ones like this...

Even in the rain my own feet and clothing was against me, letting me down! My coat was heavy with the water and it stole some of my speed, but I kept on running. I can only hope that the policeman was really on my side.

'Was' should be 'were' (feet and clothing are plural) 'Can' should be 'could' in order to keep the tense consistent.

At this stage giving up seemed the better option; if they caught me I’d go to prison. If I claim sanctuary then I’ll be exchanging a cold cell for a cold Cathedral.

Again, 'claim' should be 'claimed' to keep the tense consistent. These sort are easily fixed. It's if you start writing whole paragraphs and pages in different tenses that problems begin multiplying.

[Photosoph]

I'm glad you found my observations useful. ^_^" (*breathes sigh of relief* ~_^ )

Erm... you have fun reading our posts? o_O Usually when I'm reading such specific posts regarding a certain subject going through such in-depth discussion, it makes me want to skim-read and then skip to the next post. ^_^"

Second language! Personally I really like it when people can speak more than one language. ^_^ I'm still working on my second, so I know it's not always an easy feat. Though personally, and as you seemed to imply, I reckon your English is at a stage where you can't blame it being your second-language for any grammatical etc errors. XD

Excellent. Glad I came through so well. Though wish the rain wouldn't do the same with your curtains. Sometimes my head just feels so muddled that I wonder whether I'm coherent.

Well, that's all the advice which I can think to give over and done with. No more critiques from me for the moment; I've pointed out the areas I could think of.