Passivity of the male

[Aibou]

Last Sunday I posted this in the Jesus Freaks Community on uJournal.. But it shall not stay there, the word will be spread. Now I only have to convert it from html to forumstuff.. well, just read it.

--------
Recently on the journals and daily life I occassionally come across the sin of man. Some have bitterness against their fathers, I know that a lot of people have that kind of bitterness. It happens everywhere in the world.. it is the source of sin.. It's the first sin of humanity. And yes, if a male person is reading this: you should continue. No, you MUST continue!! =P But it's actually very important to us all.

Testimony: I learned about this sin for the first time at the "Encounter with God" retreat, a month ago. Yesterday I wanted to say something about that in this community.. but I didn't know how to word it exactly.. I didn't write down a lot, so I was a little bit lost.. and my Encounter study papers didn't help a lot on this subject, so I sighed that evening and went to bed. Onto Sunday, and God was very good to me again.. He gave me exactly the same words just as in the retreat. Now I know how to say it, isn't that amazing? ^_^ He can surprise us in many ways.
___

We all know that God created us in His own image. (Genesis 1:26-27). And he made man the head of the family. The leading one, the one who takes responsibility for his family... but:

[indent]Romans 5:12
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one
man, and death through sin, and in this way death came
to all men, because all sinned--[/indent]
The first sinner... no it wasn't Eve, but Adam.
Yes, Eve did eat the fruit! But that wasn't the FIRST sin, which many think it is.

Before I thought like this: Eve was far, far away from Adam... Adam who is gardening two kilometres away, somewhere else! Then came the snake and so forth.. and then Eve goes to Adam, who eats the fruit. It's NOT in the bible!!

[indent]Genesis 3:6
6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was
good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also
desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it.
She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.[/indent]

Adam was with her from the beginning! He was there when the snake talked to Eve. Did he shoo the snake away? No! Did he take responsibily for his wife or at least warned her? Not at all! He did absolutely nothing! The sin of man is not what he had done, but what he did not do. The passivity is the curse of man. God searched for the head of the family. Adam didn't ask for forgiveness, but gave Eve the fault.. and then Eve points at the snake..

If the leader like that, then his family will be like that too! (Eve who blames the serpent) It passes on to father to son. I see it happen to my own brother and what has become of my father.. and so many more males. The father who doesn't take time for his children, the man who leaves his pregnant wife and all those the fatherless children. The people who never knew their father personally.. he just sits in front of tv, is at work most of the day and rarely talks to the kids, in order to express their love to them? Isn't it weird at all that the sons follow their father's example?
Do you also happen to have a better relationship with your mother than your father?
Do you know the statistics of quality time a father spends time with his kids? A few years ago it was 3 minutes!!
And now? Now it's only 35 seconds!! This is why there are so much bad things in this worlds.
The leader has to serve his family, not to be served.

[indent]God tells you not to be like that! Do not be like Adam! This is not in His image!
and He said in the very last words of the Old Testament:
Malachi 4:5-6
5 "See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that
great and dreadful day of the LORD comes. 6 He will
turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the
hearts of the children to their fathers; or else I will come
and strike the land with a curse."[/indent]

Then my pastor asked all the woman to stand, and all the men (incl. boys, students, non-married) to kneel down.
He asked us [women] to forgive the men in the church.. for every sin they commited to their families.
This was so touching, when he asked the women to pray for the men.. all the men had kneeled down..
At one point, a young woman came to the front, and prayed:

"Thank you Lord for dying on the cross for us,
please forgive these men for their sins. Forgive the fathers
who had done wrong to their children, who abused their wives
and who did not follow your Word. Help them to stay on your path.. and
please forgive me for never praying for my father...."

I was assured how our church worked, it's a family.

[uc pseudonym]

Posted with administration permission.

She already knows what I think.

[Mithrandir]

He?

[Will Smith, Jr]

Deep.

I agree. I was amazed to learn that Adam was probably standing right there next to Eve when the Fall occurred. Though as men/husbands/fathers we have responsibilities that may seem difficult or overwhelming, God still empowers us to be what He called us to be.


Blessings,
WillieDoc

[cbwing0]

Something has been bothering me for a while now; and, since it is directly related to the topic of the bible study, I will share it with the rest of you.

Before I begin, let me make it clear that I do believe that there has been a failure within the family (not just the father) today that is the cause of many problems in society. Having said that, I will get on with my post.

Every year there we have Mothers' Day and Fathers' Day. Typically, which is to say ever since I started going to church as a young child, the pastor will give a sermon about mothers on Mothers' Day, and a sermon about fathers on Fathers' Day. At every one of those sermons (until last year), this has consisted of praising mothers on Mothers' Day, and bashing fathers on Fathers' Day. Am I the only person who thinks that this is not right?

What is the cause of this state of affairs? Let me offer some of my own theories:
1.Proportions-Most people in church (other than the clergy) are women; thus, pastors are simply tailoring the message to the audience by praising mothers and bashing fathers. In addition, the vast majority of pastors are men, so it is easier for them to say nice things about their mothers as opposed to their fathers.

2.Pastors can get away with it-Perhaps this goes along with passivity, but men are more likely to take such (constructive?) criticism in stride.

3.God is called our Father-This invites comparison with our earthly fathers, who cannot hope to compare to our heavenly Father. It creates completely different expectations when viewed from this perspective.

Why is this a problem? Well, imagine that a man comes to church for the first time on Fathers' Day. He sits in the pew for an hour listening to the pastor tell him how he is a bad father, man, and human being. Do you think he will ever come back?

Let me point out that I am not saying that the tables should be turned, with constant praise for fathers, and derision of mothers. I am simply asking for a balance. This could even be done in the same sermon, time permitting.

Sorry to rant , but this is how I feel.

[EireWolf]

I would agree that balance is warranted.

I will also say... very cautiously, as I do not want to start a theological debate... that in the beginning, man was not the head of the woman; they were equal. Dominance was a result of the Fall. (See Genesis 3:16) In Christ's redemption, male and female are again equal. "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28)

[cbwing0]

I will resist the urge to debate you there, except to say that I disagree.

[shooraijin]

This can be a lot more simply nailed down if someone would crack an interlinear Bible and give the original language. I'd do it except that I'm in my office, and have none of my notes handy. A Strong's Concordance would be immensely helpful.

[MillyFan]

[quote="EireWolf"]I would agree that balance is warranted.

I will also say... very cautiously, as I do not want to start a theological debate... that in the beginning, man was not the head of the woman]

Amen.

[Bobtheduck]

This issue is one I don't like getting myself into... I allready have "Anime", "Fantasy", and "bad words" to earn me a lot of enemies, not to mention a few of my political stances, so I try to keep "Male/female roles" from being one of them...

[MillyFan]

LOL, I have "anime," "fantasy," "shounen ai," "male/female roles," "absolute right to life for everyone," and even more political stances that make most conservatives very angry.

LOL, sometimes I think I'm walking flamebait ~.^

[Michael]

I disagree with Aibou. That's all I have to say.

If you wish to know more, please PM me rather than bring it out and cause trouble. I am not critizising you, cbwing, this is merely the way I go about it.

[inkhana]

Disagree with what, what Aibou wrote or that Milly's walking flamebait?

[ShiroiHikari]

Hey...I don't think this topic was meant to start a war of the sexes o.O

[uc pseudonym]

Agreed. Back to the topic.

Though personally, now that I'm no longer gender blind (I really just don't look at it. Ever), I see something interesting in this Bible study. Not too sure what I think of it any more.

In an effort to make this post on topic, I'll state a few things I've mentioned earlier (not here, though):

1) The serpant sinned before either of them.

2) I strongly disagree with the use of the initial verse in this Bible study, though I'm not going to rant about it. Paul is not referring to a man's sin in this specific case referring to the story of the Fall of Man. Besides, it just works well to have one man (Jesus), solve one man's (Adam) sin.

Just another thought: all of us are fallen. It couldn't matter less who committed the first sin. It strikes me that an endless debate over gender roles is quite a symptom of said fallenness.

[Gypsy]

Just another thought: all of us are fallen. It couldn't matter less who committed the first sin. It strikes me that an endless debate over gender roles is quite a symptom of said fallenness.

Exactly. The only people who should really be concerned about who sinned first are in fact, Adam and Eve. And since that is said and done ... all of us reap their consequences.

That's interesting, Aibou, that you mentioned Adam was right there when Eve was talking to the serpent and taking the fruit. I've never caught that part before. If, in fact, that's what " her husband who was with her ..." means.

While I could give all of my thoughts and theories about gender roles in the home (I don't even want to go near the church part), I really would be speaking from an observer's position. I am not married]before[/i] you're married because the gender role of your household may not be the best thing to work out after you've pledged your life to one another. Oh, I'm positive there will always be things along this line that you'll need to work out as a couple as your marriage progresses, but again, I think it would be vital to know your intended mate's beliefs about the gender roles for your future home. Oh .. I went off topic I think.

*puts little train of thoughts back on track*
I have noticed that men often get a bum deal about things. True, there are chauvinistic pigs, but there are also raging "femmenazis." Both sides have individuals that put their gender to shame. However, I've never heard it in a Father's Day message. The messages I've heard stress about how important a father's role is, but they praise and encourage rather than browbeat. Men are very, very important in the role they're given in a family, and I honestly don't think they are told that enough. Perhaps if they fully realized that they are more than just "breadwinners" ...

Um, but again, these are all just observations.

[Will Smith, Jr]

Excellent posts on this discussions. I think you're right on about the initial verse, UC and much appreciation for Gypsy's insight.

Just wanted to add that both Adam and Eve were created co-equal together in Genesis 2 (v. 26 I think). Male and female were always co-equal but as stated before sin came into the picture and blurred the correct understanding of that.

Plus, I think the leader role of man applies only to the role of husband in marriage. In Ephesians 5:21, both husband and wife are to submit to each other out of reverence for Christ. The subsequent verses then outline the Biblical role of husband and wife. In no way does this diminish or elevate one gender over the other because we are already co-equals created in God's image. I think in Peter it talks about being a joint heir with your wife again emphasizing the co-equal nature of the two (sorry I don't know the verse offhand).

Blessings,
WillieDoc

[Mithrandir]

Well, I've dealt a great deal with this topic. Having a pastor for a mother, studdied for the ministry, and married a theology grad, I tend to get the story behind the 'real meaning of the verse' for all kinds of verses. That being said, I still refuse to debate this topic. Do what shooby said, and go look it up in the original language. If you study that, it will become a little more clear what is really going on. Strongs does a pretty good exigesis on each statement, IMHO.

Being the only married mod (I think!), I'll give my thoughts on the "Roles" line in this thread. For a marrige, I think it's a good idea for both parties to be equal. There are lots of different theories about it, and I don't really subscribe to any of them. Here's what I think. Granted life changes and roles with it, but if you are seriously contemplating marrige, you may wish to take this to heart to avoid early stress:

1. Clearly define roles. Statements like "Whoever is busiest does not cook" only lead to bitterness - unless you have a really good relationship. I watched a great many of my friends get blindsided by this one. For bonus points, try once a week to preform a role usually preformed by the other person. (NOTE: Telling them you did canceles out the bonus.)

2. Make sure you have similar expectations about the following categories: kids, money and cleaning. In that order. This is way to huge a topic to go into any detail here, but I'd say money is really the one that kills most marriges. Have a very good understanding about what the other person believes about spending, saving, tithing and earning. In that order.

3. Be flexable. Marrige is about love as an action, not love as a feeling. Be willing to put your life on hold for a little bit if you partner needs something.

Please note, that these are mostly taken from lots of different sources, and I don't claim any originallity over them. Except in ordering the importance to my experience.

Hmm. Have I got us back off topic? Sorry!

[cbwing0]

Hmm. Have I got us back off topic? Sorry!

As long as people are providing informed opinions and wisdom related to the originial subject, I don't see what's wrong with getting "off topic." Edification is one of the things that bible studies are supposed to provide, so I think you post was quite pertinent.

[Rashiir]

I think there is definitely a difference between men and women being equal and men and women being identical.

[MillyFan]

I think there is definitely a difference between men and women being equal and men and women being identical.

Yes, obviously: but the difference isn't always a pronounced one aside from the obvious physical differences.

I've said this on another board, and I'm kind of afraid to say it here lest people take it the wrong way, assume I'm bi or worse, and ban me. Nevertheless, I'll say it, because I've read so many Christian books on the alleged differences mental and spiritual between men and women, and they and the people I talk to all seem to have the same stereotypes which I don't fit into at all as a person.

For instance, it's almost universally assumed that men are interested in adventure and novelty while women allegedly want security and a place to "nest." As for me, the *last* thing I want is a plain-vanilla "safe" life and to be bound to one place all my life-in fact, if I can make it work as a career, I want to be a jourmalist working in a job where I have a lot of travel opportunities.

Another bit of "common knowledge" is that women love to shop, garden, and cook. Again, I'm the exact opposite: if I have to shop, I want to go in with a list, get what I need, and leave. I'm no good at cooking and don't enjoy it at all, and the only gardening I like is growing small cacti. LOL. I heavily prefer writing, reading, computers, and video games, among others, to cooking or gardening as hobbies.

It's also generally assumed that men are ignorant of emotional states while women have this perceptiveness, this ability to almost read someone's mind via body language. LOL, again I'm not like the average woman then: I don't "get" imperceptible body language and unspoken wishes at all (which makes my mother and sister extremely mad at me sometimes). I do care, and I want to be sympathetic-I'm just incredibly dense when it comes to picking up on signals like how someone sighs, vocal tone unless it's obviously angry or sad, an odd glance, etc, etc. And whenever I try to pick up on it, I universally get it wrong.

Another common assumption is that men are more logical and women are more emotional. While I can cry or fly off the handle just like anyone else, male or female, I'm almost maddeningly logical in almost everything I do except for issues of faith. By that, I mean I want to evaluate all sides of a situation as objectively as possible, and that I want to see something for myself before I believe it (unless it's in the Bible and proven from it)-among other things. I don't usually make decisions based on my feelings alone unless I have no other choice.

LOL, I once took a test in a book I was reading about what gender your brain resembles, based on things like logical thinking, spatial reasoning, emotional reactions, perceptiveness, etc. IIRC, the scoring was 0-50 was the stereotypical male and 80-100 was the stereotypical female-with the overlap between the scores being most Americans of both genders. My score? 20.

And before anyone starts flinging the accusations, I was like this all my life. I mean, some of my earliest memories are people getting angry with me because I couldn't "get" what they were "really saying," as a kid I played with toy cars, board games, and battle figurines as much as dolls and "house," and so on. I didn't choose to be a "tomboy," I wasn't abused as a kid, and I'm not "possessed" or "oppressed." I'm just myself, and I am NOT a lesbian. Flinging those accusations will get you in trouble. Seriously.

Anyway, the reason I'm saying all these things is that I'm not your "average woman," and as such, I dislike the stereotyped differences that basically say all women are overemotional, illogical, only want someone to protect them while they nest, and gossipy shopaholics-among other things.

[uc pseudonym]

First, I'd like to say I'm happy to see this isn't a bickering argument. Fights over gender roles are probably one of my largest pet peeves ever.

I really dislike gender stereotypes as well. To be honest, I don't really fit either, further supporting the fact that they're woefully inadequate.

There was a certain book (which I won't mention the title of here, for sake of avoiding argument) which was about "masculination" of Christianity (though the author never would have said that). Not only did he managed to annoy my exegetical and theological senses (and quote movies more than the Bible), it also just didn't apply to me. The book that was supposed to bring me into the male version of Christianity could very well have pushed me away from it, had I been non-Christian. I'd say the less we Christians support such stereotypes the better.

[Gypsy]

Yes, obviously: but the difference isn't always a pronounced one aside from the obvious physical differences.

I've said this on another board, and I'm kind of afraid to say it here lest people take it the wrong way, assume I'm bi or worse, and ban me. Nevertheless, I'll say it, because I've read so many Christian books on the alleged differences mental and spiritual between men and women, and they and the people I talk to all seem to have the same stereotypes which I don't fit into at all as a person.

For instance, it's almost universally assumed that men are interested in adventure and novelty while women allegedly want security and a place to "nest." As for me, the *last* thing I want is a plain-vanilla "safe" life and to be bound to one place all my life-in fact, if I can make it work as a career, I want to be a jourmalist working in a job where I have a lot of travel opportunities.

I hardly think that makes you a candidate for bisexual accusations. I have the same personality myself. I've never thought about names for my future kids, planned out my wedding, or dreamed about a house with a white picket fence. I really don't like wearing skirts, and I'm very independent by nature. That doesn't mean that I'm bi, or even that I'm going to be one of those single people the Bible talks about. It just means I'd rather be out flying rather than sitting in a nest.

I don't think that makes either of us any less feminine, but I also don't think we're strange by any means.

Another bit of "common knowledge" is that women love to shop, garden, and cook. Again, I'm the exact opposite: if I have to shop, I want to go in with a list, get what I need, and leave. I'm no good at cooking and don't enjoy it at all, and the only gardening I like is growing small cacti. LOL. I heavily prefer writing, reading, computers, and video games, among others, to cooking or gardening as hobbies.

Well, that is a very, very narrow stereotype. Those are some of the overlapping hobbies that the majority of women share - not necessarily traits all of us should have. I like cooking ... I'm not very good at it ... (one of the catchphrases around my house used to be "It's supposed to be black. EAT IT!"). I also enjoy plants and gardens but, I'm also really into writing, reading, computers, and gaming as well. And vidoe games aside, most women I know also like reading, writing and computers. As for shopping ... I like shopping at eb, Best Buy, Suncoast, and Borders. See, the shopping thing is in me alright, but you probably won't catch me browsing a clothing store looking for a tailor-cut blazer to match my white dress slacks. (And if you do, please ask me what I've been smoking.)

It's also generally assumed that men are ignorant of emotional states while women have this perceptiveness, this ability to almost read someone's mind via body language.

Another common assumption is that men are more logical and women are more emotional.

Well, as far as my observations go, perception is not limited to gender type. While it is true that the woman's thought process is based more on emotions than a man's thought process, I've rarely seen this in extreme action. Different minds will think and compute differently. I think that insight is based more on actual personality rather than gender.

Anyway, the reason I'm saying all these things is that I'm not your "average woman," and as such, I dislike the stereotyped differences that basically say all women are overemotional, illogical, only want someone to protect them while they nest, and gossipy shopaholics-among other things.

I'm not sure how much stock people actually put into that stereotype anymore. If anything, it's changing rapidly. Just the other day, I was talking with my father about this subject. He said that he's almost afraid to doors open for ladies now. He gets dirty looks, and sometimes even rude comments. "It's not that I didn't think she could open the door herself," he said, "but something inside of me just automatically wants to hold open doors and let females walk through first." I have the sneaky suspicion that many guys might have thought the same thing at one point or another.

Sidenote to the ladies: I don't think that many of are of this mindset, but I'm sure you've heard of other women's crabbing on the issue. If a guy holds open a door for you, he's not insulting you or thinking that you are weak. He is just being kind, and dare I say "chivalrous." A quick "thanks" will go a lot further than the icy stare that he might get from another lady, and believe it or not, a smile will not in fact crack your face. End of sidenote

To sum up: While I think people recognize stereotypes, I don't think the majority hold them to be actual facts to judge people on. True, you'll get the occasional moron from both genders, but hey, they keep things interesting.

You can't fight a stereotype. However, you can prove it wrong.

[Mithrandir]

Milly & Gyper:

Thanks for being honest. It's nice to see people who don't feel like they have to cram themselves into a mold. Oh, and about holding the door open. My mother taught me to be "NICE." I hold the door open for guys as well as girls. It's the same teaching that keeps me from acting on my first impulse when I get that icey stare.

[cbwing0]

I was going to work on my lit paper this afternoon, but this is more interesting...

It is interesting that you (Milly and Gypsy) point out the same characteristics in yourselves, such as writing, games, anime, computers, etc.. In addition, you both point out that don't like gardening, shopping for boring things, or wearing blazers.

What I find so interesting about this is that I would wager that 95% of the people on these boards would, regardless of gender, say the exact same thing about themselves. In fact, I might even start a thread with a poll to test that hypothesis. Then again, when people gather together based on their common interests/faith rather than gender, it would be reasonable to assume that gender would not be the most important factor in determining their major personality traits. Just something to think about.

One more thing: according to many psychologists, there are actually 4 types of people, rather than 2. The 4 types are masculine, feminine, androgynous, and undifferentiated. Now, when I say that these are 4 types of people, this represents different points on a continuum between masculinity and femininity. Thus, a masculine person is high in masculine traits and low in feminine traits, which an androgynous person would be high in both (and an undifferentiated person would be low in both). The traits of masculinity and femininity, then are two personality traits possessed in differing degrees by each person of both genders. Researchers are divided about which type of person is "happiest," of most "well-adjusted" in their everday lives, but they do agree that gender is a more complicated concept that most people believe.

Later, I'll describe my own personality if you like, but right now I have to work on my Literature paper.

[MillyFan]

Wow, reading Gypsy's quote, I just caught my typo. That was supposed to be "journalist," NOT "jourmalist."

I honestly need to get more sleep LOL.

[Danyasaur]

The serpant sinned before either of them.

YES EXACTALY! GOOD! RIGHTO MUNDO!

satan is a fallen angel, therfore satan was there on God's good green earth to tempt both of them! it's not either of our falts! Man nor Woman! satan was there so God knew that he would tempt us and that we would give in!

that's my opinion, archy

[Rashiir]

Perhaps I should rephrase my previous statement:

I think there's a difference between people being equal and people being identical.

[ThaKladd]

Genesis 2:15: â€