My beef with Lord of the Rings

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Postby Crossdive » Sun Nov 07, 2004 12:58 pm

Warrior 4 Jesus wrote:Don't get me wrong. I really enjoy the book and movie (to be correct) but what has always confused me is the section where Aragorn summons the dead armies to fight (Paths of the Dead). I don't see the Christian implications in this. I mean the rest of LotR has strong Christian undercurrents, but this passage seems to go against Christian belief (necromancy). I'm curious to hear others views on the subject.

allow me to direct everyone to THE source for Christian meaning behind LOTR films (including your problem W4J): http://www.angelsandelves.com/
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Postby aule1701 » Mon Nov 08, 2004 9:31 am

Kireihana wrote:Actually Aule, in the book they are dead. The name "Paths of the Dead" is quite accurate. However, the reason they are dead is because they betrayed the king of Gondor long ago (it was Isildur, correct?) and he cursed them to "living death" (as in they couldn't depart from the world, even though they were dead) until they answered the call of Isildur's heir.

Not on par with the Bible, but like others have said Tolkien wasn't out to write a biblical analogy. C.S. Lewis did that. I don't see how the Paths of the Dead scenario is any worse than Gandalf and Saruman's wizarding, the elf-magic or the many forms of Sauron's evil. So I'm not bothered by it, but I see how your question is justified. Personally I thought the movie's rendition of "the dead" was kind of corny. lol. Still a huge fan, though.

dude what i was saying is that he did not raise them from the dead they were ghost living around the area of the black stone he calles them to end the curse and also i did not like how they showed up in the battle for plennor field they only attacked the ships and people from around the area manned them as well as the rangers from the north
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Postby Debitt » Mon Nov 08, 2004 4:08 pm

Crossdive wrote:allow me to direct everyone to THE source for Christian meaning behind LOTR films (including your problem W4J): http://www.angelsandelves.com/

Despite the interesting interpretations of LOTR this site gives, I still believe there is no hidden Christian meaning in LOTR aside from the meaning an individual gives it. Tolkein did not set out to preach, but to entertain, and the books should be viewed as just that - entertainment.
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Postby AsterlonKnight » Mon Nov 08, 2004 4:18 pm

yep. Tolkien hated hated hated allegory.
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Postby Mangafanatic » Mon Nov 08, 2004 6:02 pm

I think the key phrase people are using is that page is "hidden" meaning. There's nothing blatant about the "Christian meaning" behind LoTR. That's what makes me doubt the dual meaning idea (not to mention Tolkien's own words concerning Allegory).

Furthermore, the allegorical formula in Tolkien's work is somewhat general. Afterall, people shortly after WWII were saying it was allegorical, too, but they were saying it was a WWII allegory. And if you think about it-- it can fit really well. Honestly, most general ideals can be fit into the LoTR story. This is what makes me say it's a really great story, but not a blatantly Christian tale.
Every year in Uganda, innumerable children simply. . . disappear. These children all stolen under the cover of darkness from their homes and impressed into the guerilla armies of the LRA [Lord's Resistance Army]. In the deserts of Uganda, they are forced to witness the mindless slaughter of other children until they themselves can do nothing but kill. Kill. These children, generally ranging from ages 5-12, are brainwashed into murdering in the name of the resistance and into stealing other children from their beds to suffer the same fate.

Because of this genocide of innocence, hundred and hundreds of children live every night sleeping in public places miles from their homes, because they know that if the do not-- they will disappear. They will become just another number in this genocide to which the international community has chosen to turn a blind eye. They will become, in affect, invisible-- Invisible Children.

But there are those who are trying to fight against this slaughter of Uganda's children. They fight to protect these "invisible children." Please, help them help a country full of children who know nothing by fear. Help save the innocence. For more information concerning how you can help and how you can get an incredible video about this horrific reality, visit the Invisible Children home page.
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Postby Crossdive » Mon Nov 08, 2004 8:11 pm

well, everyone think what you want, but i believe this site is pretty darn cool and accurate...
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Postby Mangafanatic » Tue Nov 09, 2004 8:43 am

Oh, I didn't say it's not cool. I really think it is. I love listening to people's applications of how we can be inspired by Tolkien's works in our walk with Christ. It's just a neat thing.

When I start getting frustrated is when people say "See! Seeeeeee. . . that's what he meant. He meant Gandalf is an angel, Sam is the Holy Spirit, The Illuvatar is God, that tree that they pass when they leave Rivendale is really the dividing line between the new and Old Testament, (ect.)" I'm not saying we can't be "inspired" by the similarities we perceive in LoTR and our Christian walks with God (or whatever other concept you liken it to). What I'm saying we can't do is put words in Tolkien's mouth (or book, in this case) that wasn't there. It's simply unfair to him.
Every year in Uganda, innumerable children simply. . . disappear. These children all stolen under the cover of darkness from their homes and impressed into the guerilla armies of the LRA [Lord's Resistance Army]. In the deserts of Uganda, they are forced to witness the mindless slaughter of other children until they themselves can do nothing but kill. Kill. These children, generally ranging from ages 5-12, are brainwashed into murdering in the name of the resistance and into stealing other children from their beds to suffer the same fate.

Because of this genocide of innocence, hundred and hundreds of children live every night sleeping in public places miles from their homes, because they know that if the do not-- they will disappear. They will become just another number in this genocide to which the international community has chosen to turn a blind eye. They will become, in affect, invisible-- Invisible Children.

But there are those who are trying to fight against this slaughter of Uganda's children. They fight to protect these "invisible children." Please, help them help a country full of children who know nothing by fear. Help save the innocence. For more information concerning how you can help and how you can get an incredible video about this horrific reality, visit the Invisible Children home page.
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Postby aule1701 » Tue Nov 09, 2004 10:13 am

one of the main themes of the book is about the environment and his concerns about it as in sauraman destorying the forest with industry and the trees attacking and all the things with the ents that was a clear message.
he also as war and insperation in the book i am not sure if he meant to have christian themes but his books have some
if you really need a book with clear christian themes then read JRRs best freind at oxford CS lewis
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Postby termyt » Tue Nov 09, 2004 11:16 am

Tolkien's feelings on allegory aside, the story is indeed an allegory. I dare say all works of fiction are, if they are worth reading/watching. It is primarily through allegory that we, the reader/viewer identify with the characters in the narrative. With out some sort of connection to the characters - being able to put ourselves in their shoes for example (and thus making them an allegory of ourselves) - the story would be uninteresting to us. This is why some people really enjoy a title where as others can not stand it.

The fact is, Tolkien's Christianity weighed heavily in the way he thought, acted, and ultimately wrote (as it should with all of us who claim to be Christians). In that context, he could not help put place the same or similar themes into his own writings. Perhaps Lewis was a tad more direct in his Narnian chronicles, but the effect is still the same.

Also, I would say that an author's intent is only part of the equation. The outcome is just as important, if not more so, then the intent. Whether Tolkien intended to place the allegorical parallels into the story is not relevant. The fact is they are there for us to draw upon.
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Postby Crossdive » Tue Nov 09, 2004 3:00 pm

well, I agree with you guys, but now I am getting thrown in a loop of confusion...

Mangafanatic, I do think that Tolkein shouldn't have words shoved in his mouth, but I think that most of these things were already in his mouth to begin with, though we shouldn't pull to more than our opinion and what is prooven I guess is the end result...
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Postby uc pseudonym » Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:08 am

I am not certain this discussion is taking us anywhere. That is not an administrative condemnation, merely a comment. None of us are really going to change our opinions, and unless this is productive.

Mangafanatic wrote:When I start getting frustrated is when people say "See! Seeeeeee. . . that's what he meant. He meant Gandalf is an angel, Sam is the Holy Spirit, The Illuvatar is God, that tree that they pass when they leave Rivendale is really the dividing line between the new and Old Testament, (ect.)"


No, no, you have it all wrong. Gandalf is obviously the pharisees, Pippin is the Holy Spirit, the orcs are God and Illuvatar is the owner of a small restaurant managed by Zahpod Beeblebrox.
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Postby Debitt » Thu Nov 11, 2004 10:05 am

uc pseudonym wrote:No, no, you have it all wrong. Gandalf is obviously the pharisees, Pippin is the Holy Spirit, the orcs are God and Illuvatar is the owner of a small restaurant managed by Zahpod Beeblebrox.

:lol: I think UC's understanding of LOTR is far beyond anyone else's in this thread.
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Postby juvey » Sun Nov 14, 2004 11:25 am

This may be a few days late, but I think it is relevant. As many have said, it is true that Tolkien did not set out to write an allegory, but his Christian mindset permeated his works.

That said, I'd like to try and point out a few things. I don't know how many of you have only seen the movies, read the books, read the books and the Silmarillion, or read the books, the Silmarillion, the Unfinished Tales, the Letters, and the History of Middle Earth series. I'm one of the later people (save a few of the 12 History books).

Tolkien created a fantasy world. In his world, there was one all powerful being named Iluvatar. This being created other beings lower than himself, but still with 'powers' above those of us humans. One of those beings fell, and others followed him. Iluvatar created the world, and let some of the beings go into it to watch over it for the coming of his 'children', Elves and Men. Accompanying those beings, the Valar and Maiar, was Morgoth (the fallen one) and his followers, evil Maiar, Balrogs. Gandalf is one of the Maiar, and as such has 'powers' that Men do not have to affect the physical world.

The Elves appeared first. They are Iluvatar's oldest children, and they are more 'in touch' with the Valar, Maiar, and physical world than the Men. In fact, their very beings are tied to the world. When their bodies are destroyed, they do not leave the world, but gather in waiting halls for the end of the world, when Iluvatar will then reveal what their destinies are. Unless some physical harm comes upon the Elves, their bodies will not grow old and die.

Men are not like that. Iluvatar gave them a 'gift', and that is death. It is so that they do not grow weary with the world, as the Elves do. Death was originally a good thing; they would die and then their spirits would pass out of the world and join Iluvatar. However, Morgoth cast a shadow of fear upon death, and the Men, choosing to follow him in their infancy, fell and have been covered with a desire to search for immortality ever since.

The other beings in Tolkien's works, such as Ents and Dwarves, were created with Iluvatar's permission by the Valar. Orcs were twisted from Elves by Morgoth. Hobbits are descended, most believe, from Men.

All of that background is to say that Tolkien clearly was not making an exact Biblical allegory. However, it is clear that there is definite, unarguable Good in his world, and definite, unarguable Bad. That good is always right, and bad always wrong, should be enough to guide people as to if this book follows Christian morals or not. Being fantasy, it is automatically out of the Biblical range. The Bible says nothing about Ents, or Dwarves, or Elves, or anything like that. That Tolkien's works include creatures that are not human may turn people off. If one can accept that they are in his works, then I don't see why one cannot accept that they have powers that humans don't have. The basic underlying message of the story is not 'this symbolizes that, etc.', but Good and Bad battle, and Good triumphs.

I realize that was rambling, but I hope it is of some help. ^^
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Postby Mangafanatic » Sun Nov 14, 2004 1:30 pm

juvey wrote:This may be a few days late, but I think it is relevant. As many have said, it is true that Tolkien did not set out to write an allegory, but his Christian mindset permeated his works.

That said, I'd like to try and point out a few things. I don't know how many of you have only seen the movies, read the books, read the books and the Silmarillion, or read the books, the Silmarillion, the Unfinished Tales, the Letters, and the History of Middle Earth series. I'm one of the later people (save a few of the 12 History books).

Tolkien created a fantasy world. In his world, there was one all powerful being named Iluvatar. This being created other beings lower than himself, but still with 'powers' above those of us humans. One of those beings fell, and others followed him. Iluvatar created the world, and let some of the beings go into it to watch over it for the coming of his 'children', Elves and Men. Accompanying those beings, the Valar and Maiar, was Morgoth (the fallen one) and his followers, evil Maiar, Balrogs. Gandalf is one of the Maiar, and as such has 'powers' that Men do not have to affect the physical world.

The Elves appeared first. They are Iluvatar's oldest children, and they are more 'in touch' with the Valar, Maiar, and physical world than the Men. In fact, their very beings are tied to the world. When their bodies are destroyed, they do not leave the world, but gather in waiting halls for the end of the world, when Iluvatar will then reveal what their destinies are. Unless some physical harm comes upon the Elves, their bodies will not grow old and die.

Men are not like that. Iluvatar gave them a 'gift', and that is death. It is so that they do not grow weary with the world, as the Elves do. Death was originally a good thing]

No, I thought it was a very interesting condensing of the Silmarillion. And I admire you for having the discipline to read all of the history books. You are indeed a brave person. *cowers in fear at the thought of the Simlarillion*

I would mention that I'm not sure that it's the fact
That Tolkien's works include creatures that are not human
that turns most people off. I think more people are repulsed by the "good magic vs. bad magic" mentality of Tolkien (and Lewis for that matter).
Every year in Uganda, innumerable children simply. . . disappear. These children all stolen under the cover of darkness from their homes and impressed into the guerilla armies of the LRA [Lord's Resistance Army]. In the deserts of Uganda, they are forced to witness the mindless slaughter of other children until they themselves can do nothing but kill. Kill. These children, generally ranging from ages 5-12, are brainwashed into murdering in the name of the resistance and into stealing other children from their beds to suffer the same fate.

Because of this genocide of innocence, hundred and hundreds of children live every night sleeping in public places miles from their homes, because they know that if the do not-- they will disappear. They will become just another number in this genocide to which the international community has chosen to turn a blind eye. They will become, in affect, invisible-- Invisible Children.

But there are those who are trying to fight against this slaughter of Uganda's children. They fight to protect these "invisible children." Please, help them help a country full of children who know nothing by fear. Help save the innocence. For more information concerning how you can help and how you can get an incredible video about this horrific reality, visit the Invisible Children home page.
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Postby Warrior 4 Jesus » Sun Nov 14, 2004 4:26 pm

No, no. The good characters that display 'fantasitcal' powers don't use magic, all magic is evil. There is no good magic. What they do use is very much like spiritual gifts from Illuvatar, who for all senses and purposes is most definetly Middle Earth's one True God.

I've read the Hobbit, LortR, the Silmarillion, Unifished Tales and the Lost Tales 1 and 2 but I didn't get any further with the History of Middle Earth, since its too 'heavy' reading for my poor dyslexic brain to comprehend.
I recommend people read the Silmarillion, it is a very good read. But I also recommend you read a little at a time because it is heavy reading and easier to understand and enjoy in smaller doses.
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Postby juvey » Sun Nov 14, 2004 4:55 pm

I'm sorry, I don't agree, Warrior. If you've read the books, then you will agree that Morgoth, Sauron, and the Balrogs are of the same exact race of beings as the Valar and the Maiar (of whom Gandalf was one, and when he came to Middle Earth he was called a wizard by the men there). If so, then how can Sauron be using magic to do his deeds and Gandalf not? They are both using the power that Iluvatar gave them when they were created. Gandalf uses his for good, Sauron for bad. If it is called magic, then they are both using magic. If it is called Spiritual gifts, then they are both using spiritual gifts.

It is like with humans. We all have a soul. We all have the ability to pray, and connect with power higher than we are. Some people pray to God, and some to the devil. Does that mean we are using different abilities?

If you mean that magic is using the ability for evil, while spiritual gift is using the ability for good, then I understand. But if you are saying that, because Sauron is evil and Gandalf good, they are using different abilities, I disagree.

Mangafanatic, you're right. It is usually the magic part that turns people off. I suppose I was trying to say that, if someone can accept that, in this world, there are being different from humans, they should be able to accept that these beings may have powers that humans don't have, and can choose to use them for good or evil.
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Postby uc pseudonym » Sun Nov 14, 2004 5:58 pm

Your post was basically relevant, juvey, and hence acceptable.

In terms of "magic" I believe I will agree with you, in that all power seems to come from the same source and hence should receive only one term. Condemnation of that term, of course, is up to the individual. Of course, if we take this in a fantasy context, none of this matter is relevant to a Christian reading of the book.
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Postby greyscale42 » Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:39 pm

I dont think LOTR was really written to have that much Christian meaning. Most of it seems like alot of speculation.
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Postby aule1701 » Sun Nov 14, 2004 7:40 pm

ok i guess you all have never seen the environmental aspectes of the book, that was his main point in his book besides the fight of good and evil i seen little evidence that made the book christian based, althought he was a christian himself his book was his views on war and things he witnessed ( he wrote the start of his world the Silmarillion in the ww1) i think war and the after efftects are prevalent in the books and also the industry that war brought destorying the environment I.E. saruman destorying the forest. The main principle of the LOrd of the rings i believe to be very simple good vs evil and no matter how small you are you can make a differance
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Postby aule1701 » Sun Nov 14, 2004 7:42 pm

opps posted twice stupid slow good for nothing computer
anyway HI
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Postby juvey » Sun Nov 14, 2004 9:38 pm

Right, Aule, war and its effects on the environment is one of the themes of his books. As is sacrifice, love, faithfulness, mercy, friendship, and a good deal of other things. :) I think the main theme is good vs. evil, though, and the means with which this battle is fought is the problem for some readers. ^^
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Postby termyt » Tue Nov 16, 2004 5:39 pm

I think it's worth noting that all of these things have a place, just as they have a place in Rings. Each is given a certain amount of consideration, some more, some less. So it is with us. All these things deserve consideration. Some more, some less.
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Postby nightblade » Thu Nov 18, 2004 3:05 pm

I didn't read all 6 pages, but as to your Paths of the Dead thing, it could be Christ taking the dead to heaven as "the dead shall rise" and their warriors of Christ to fight against evil. Aragorn is kind of the "coming king" in LotR, so that could be it. Just my take.
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Postby Mangafanatic » Sat Nov 20, 2004 8:29 am

nightblade wrote:I didn't read all 6 pages, but as to your Paths of the Dead thing, it could be Christ taking the dead to heaven as "the dead shall rise" and their warriors of Christ to fight against evil. Aragorn is kind of the "coming king" in LotR, so that could be it. Just my take.



Or it could be Aragorn inlisting the help of the dead. ;)
Every year in Uganda, innumerable children simply. . . disappear. These children all stolen under the cover of darkness from their homes and impressed into the guerilla armies of the LRA [Lord's Resistance Army]. In the deserts of Uganda, they are forced to witness the mindless slaughter of other children until they themselves can do nothing but kill. Kill. These children, generally ranging from ages 5-12, are brainwashed into murdering in the name of the resistance and into stealing other children from their beds to suffer the same fate.

Because of this genocide of innocence, hundred and hundreds of children live every night sleeping in public places miles from their homes, because they know that if the do not-- they will disappear. They will become just another number in this genocide to which the international community has chosen to turn a blind eye. They will become, in affect, invisible-- Invisible Children.

But there are those who are trying to fight against this slaughter of Uganda's children. They fight to protect these "invisible children." Please, help them help a country full of children who know nothing by fear. Help save the innocence. For more information concerning how you can help and how you can get an incredible video about this horrific reality, visit the Invisible Children home page.
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Postby uc pseudonym » Sat Nov 20, 2004 12:38 pm

nightblade wrote:I didn't read all 6 pages, but as to your Paths of the Dead thing, it could be Christ taking the dead to heaven as "the dead shall rise" and their warriors of Christ to fight against evil. Aragorn is kind of the "coming king" in LotR, so that could be it. Just my take.


[quote="Mangafanatic"]Or it could be Aragorn inlisting the help of the dead. ]

Or it could be a cry for help from a nigh-suicidal CS Lewis that Tolkien decided wasn't a bad addition. Just my take.

But what I mean to post is that I think that while this discussion has its benefits, it also has the possibility of being unproductive. To a certain degree, I don't think that we'll accomplish a great deal by continuing too much longer. So unless someone has something new to add to the discussion, I suggest that we bid this thread a fond farewell.
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