I just don't know what to think any more.

[Go]

When talking about Death Note on another message board, I was linked to a site called evilbible. What is this nonsense? I thought. And didn't even bother to visit the site. But I did just a few minutes ago and was...surprised...by what I read. There were a lot of acts of murder, rape, slavery, and not only that, it was supposedly in the name of God. The statements were backed up by scriptures and I pulled out a bible was even more surprised when I had the same interpretation.

That doesn't mean I'm planning on changing my religion any time soon, I just need some understanding. Why were people doing these kind of deeds in the name of God?

[Momo-P]

Because it gives them a "good excuse" to do these evil deeds. They can take them to the police or the nuthouse, but neither of them will be able to do anything (in terms of consulting them on the matter). Heck, if a person gets the right lawyers, one could easily manipulate scripture to save their client's skin!

Forcing the blame onto another is nothing new, but with God it's a special treat. It's not actual person so they can't confront anyone, and a non-believer could easily say at the last minute "God told me to do it!"

Though it should be noted, in not all cases does this happen. Sometimes you really do get a mentally ill person, and in that case it's nobodies fault. Just the junk in their brain...

[jaems-kun]

Sooo... You chose this faith... without reading the bible first?

[Go]

No, I read the bible, just not the part about the acts of murder, rape, and slavery. Do I have to read the thing from front to back to be able to call myself a Christian? Isn't it enough that I chose this faith because of Jesus dying on the cross for me?

Momo-P: I was referring to the acts (rape, murder) in the bible that were endorsed by God.

[Radical Dreamer]

Which scriptures were used, out of curiosity?

That aside, people have been sinning "in God's name" for ages. It's nothing terribly new, though still wrong as always.

[Go]

"Deuteronomy 20:10-14"
When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as a plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies.

There are more but I don't have enough time to type them up. I ask that you visit the site for yourself and see why I am in a state of confusion at the moment. I simply want answers to gain an understanding but if I am to be mocked like I was by jaems-kun then I won't even bother and will seek help elsewhere.

[sharien chan]

Well like it was already mentioned a lot of things are done in the name of God but aren't actually from God Himself you know? Just because someone is a Christian doesn't mean that they always follow what God tells them to do. And a lot of people claim to do things in the name of God to justify their behaviors, when it's really not what God wants them to do.

However God in the Old Testament was a lot different from the God in the New Testament. I'm really not sure how to explain it because I don't want to word it wrong or anything. But if you want answers you should talk to your church, they could answer it for you. And it'd be a lot more accurate than anything we could say here to explain it to you.

[jaems-kun]

I wasn't mocking. I just think its a good idea to research the things you base your life on. You endorse Jesus, you endorse a God that kills adulterers. It's true facts.

What kind of help are you looking for? Do you want someone to tell you, "no this stuff really isn't in the bible"? It's right there, accept or deny it.

Personally, I believe that God is the ultimate perfection. Perfection which can't be understood by one as imperfect as me. So if Perfection sees fit to murder and rape, far be it from me to judge. I'll live my life as I think Perfection guides me personally, as best I can.

[Radical Dreamer]

There are more but I don't have enough time to type them up. I ask that you visit the site for yourself and see why I am in a state of confusion at the moment. I simply want answers to gain an understanding but if I am to be mocked like I was by jaems-kun then I won't even bother and will seek help elsewhere.

Context has a lot to do with it. I'm hardly well-versed in the history of Deuteronomy, but I can at least say that, when people base their actions on things like this in the Old Testament, it's usually fairly shaky. The New Testament brings with it a new covenant to which Christians are to adhere. Many of the laws of the Old Testament are no longer used. Also, bear in mind that this verse is talking about a specific series of battles in a war, and not how one should live out their every day life.

Someone else will probably come along and make a far more informed post than I have, but that's the best I can do with what I've got. XD

[Momo-P]

Context has a lot to do with it. I'm hardly well-versed in the history of Deuteronomy, but I can at least say that, when people base their actions on things like this in the Old Testament, it's usually fairly shaky. The New Testament brings with it a new covenant to which Christians are to adhere. Many of the laws of the Old Testament are no longer used. Also, bear in mind that this verse is talking about a specific series of battles in a war, and not how one should live out their every day life.

It's also worth noting how PEACE was offered up first. The passage didn't just say "go and attack this city", it does say to make an offer of peace first. I'd have to go and read what else went on around that verse, but if God let them go to this city and do this, there was obviously a reason for it. You can't just read individual verses or passages, you have to read around them as well.

Also Go, why did you just highlight women? Why not children? Why not livestock? If you're going to take that as "God says it's ok to rape" then I guess it must be ok to rape children and have sex with animals too, right? After all, if you can use the plunder, then sex with ANY of it counts, right?

However, that makes no sense. I don't remember any passage where God said rape was ok. Sure it may say the plunder is theirs to use, but the usage has to apply to God's other rules. After all, if they captured a woman and made her their goddess, that's breaking one of God's commandments. Just because He lets them have this stuff doesn't mean they can do whatever they please with it. It probably just meant they women could be used as servants or even taken as wives.

[Radical Dreamer]

Also Go, why did you just highlight women? Why not children? Why not livestock? If you're going to take that as "God says it's ok to rape" then I guess it must be ok to rape children and have sex with animals too, right? After all, if you can use the plunder, then sex with ANY of it counts, right?

However, that makes no sense. I don't remember any passage where God said rape was ok. Sure it may say the plunder is theirs to use, but the usage has to apply to God's other rules. After all, if they captured a woman and made her their goddess, that's breaking one of God's commandments. Just because He lets them have this stuff doesn't mean they can do whatever they please with it. It probably just meant they women could be used as servants or even taken as wives.

Adding onto this line of thought, Deuteronomy 21 says the following:

10 When you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, 11 if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. 12 Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails 13 and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. 14 If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.

Not "rape," but marry after a full month. Again, context is important. XD

[Peanut]

Context has a lot to do with it. I'm hardly well-versed in the history of Deuteronomy, but I can at least say that, when people base their actions on things like this in the Old Testament, it's usually fairly shaky. The New Testament brings with it a new covenant to which Christians are to adhere. Many of the laws of the Old Testament are no longer used. Also, bear in mind that this verse is talking about a specific series of battles in a war, and not how one should live out their every day life.

Someone else will probably come along and make a far more informed post than I have, but that's the best I can do with what I've got. XD

You pretty much got it actually. The other thing that must be remembered is that the Old Testament wasn't written in 21st century America but in a time when practices like the one described in Deuteronomy 20:10-14 were normal practices done by every country. Most of these "the bible is repulsive" arguments through scripture around while ignoring this fact entirely. Also, Canaan was an area which had already been condemned by God for it's wicked practices (such as burying live babies under the cornerstone of a building for good luck), so the Israelites were really just carrying out God's judgment. Go, if you have anymore questions don't be afraid to post them, after all how are you going to get answers to them if you never ask them.

[Go]

Also Go, why did you just highlight women? Why not children? Why not livestock? If you're going to take that as "God says it's ok to rape" then I guess it must be ok to rape children and have sex with animals too, right? After all, if you can use the plunder, then sex with ANY of it counts, right?

I just wanted the emphasis to be on rape, and that is usually women. I didn't think about the children or animals in that manner.

Many of the laws of the Old Testament are no longer used.

Sure it may say the plunder is theirs to use, but the usage has to apply to God's other rules.

That makes a lot of sense and clears a lot of things up. Thank you.

Go, if you have anymore questions don't be afraid to post them, after all how are you going to get answers to them if you never ask them.

If I have any more questions (which I'm sure I will), I won't hesitate to ask.

Thanks for everyone's input. I'm going to go do some studying on my own. It is true that I should be more informed about these things.

[Momo-P]

Good for you Go, glad you feel better and are searching for the answers! ^^ Just to help out one last bit (since I snagged my Bible off my bed), but that passage you were refering to, to begin with? It should be noted it started off with "When thou goest out to battle against thine enemies"--so ya. These guys were enemies to begin with. So not only was it not done for fun, but God still instructed them to try peace first. I don't know about you, but I think that's actually pretty dang nice.

The only guys who weren't spared were the ungodly nations like Peanut said, but with them...burning babies, burying babies, they had problems. It's quite easy to see why God laid out punishment on them. ._.;

[Mr. SmartyPants]

However God in the Old Testament was a lot different from the God in the New Testament.

Eh, a lot of people say this but it's really not that true. God was a loving god and a just God, and he is still the same. Since he is "I AM", he does not change. He is past, present, and future. Him now was him back in the times of Abraham.

And what Peanut says is true. For example, back in those times it was customary for Kings to have many wives and concubines. Even King David himself had eight wives. Reason being was that more wives = more alliances and more power. God did not endorse the practice, but he almost "worked with" the culture to an extent.

Never take a criticism of the Bible at face value. Instead, try to read on the culture and the context of the verses and they will make more sense to you. I've been to evilbible many times, and all of it is pretty much things taken incorrectly and out of context.

And if you want, these two sources are great for some studying:
http://www.apologeticspress.org
http://www.carm.org

Sooo... You chose this faith... without reading the bible first?

Countless people choose the faith without any Biblical knowledge when at moments of powerful conversions. Let's get off our high horse, shall we?

[Fish and Chips]

Someone's reading a lot of their own context into that Deuteronomy passage. "Take these as plunder" refers to the spoils of war, among which human beings were not uncommon. The losing party in most ancient Middle Eastern wars were usually kept as slaves by the victors, though the idea of slavery then differed marginally from slavery now, and for the Israelites even more so. God instructed through Moses that slaves be treated as human beings, and freed after seven years of service, no excuses (unless the slaves themselves requested to stay by their masters' side).

And besides the point, God himself clearly banned rape in the Torah. "Take these" and "Use the plunder" are too multi-functional to ascribe only a single (negative) connotation.

[Tundrawolf]

No, I read the bible, just not the part about the acts of murder, rape, and slavery. Do I have to read the thing from front to back to be able to call myself a Christian? Isn't it enough that I chose this faith because of Jesus dying on the cross for me?

Momo-P: I was referring to the acts (rape, murder) in the bible that were endorsed by God.

I spent a lot of time debating this very thing with people. It boils down to this:

Slavery was commonplace back then, and even today, believe it or not, in other countries.

The slaughtering of women and children called for was due to the level of evil they were involved in as a culture. If even one was spared, their beliefs could bring darkness into Gods people (As it has before, many times).

If you are unwilling to believe that allowing people of other cultures into your society will ultimately have an influence over your society, then I cannot tell you any more.

And yes, even children. Genetics can be passed down-and believe it or not, God is a heck of a lot smarter than we are. He knows more than we ever will, and there are levels of wickedness that can be passed on (Sins [curses, people!] of the fathers will be passed down to the children) even in a child.

If you think about the level of wickedness that was popular then (And sometimes even now) it really makes you ill. Back then, before the perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ to make atonement for sins, literally entire societies had to perish to prevent their destructive and evil ways from spreading-they were so ingrained and without remedy.

Think about it-from a Biblical point of view-the cooking alive of infants on the hands of demonic idols, the harlotry of idol worship (literally sexual practices in worshipping their idols-which were actually demons) and all of the awful things committed, in order to stay pure it was necessary in that time.

Further, conquering armies (Assyrians, ahem) would routinely rape and murder the women, skin alive the men, and generally torture their captives, in ways that would make you sick. Did God ask His people to do these things? No. God is not cruel.

Further still, in case if nobody has noticed-this is a terrible world. If you wish to concentrate and focus on things you feel are wrong in the Bible, why not more productively spend your time fighting actual wrongful slaughters that occur even today?

This is why people who spear each other to death and worship tree frogs can be redeemed in the name of Jesus, because there finally is a Perfect Sacrifice of atonement.

[Tundrawolf]

Someone's reading a lot of their own context into that Deuteronomy passage. "Take these as plunder" refers to the spoils of war, among which human beings were not uncommon. The losing party in most ancient Middle Eastern wars were usually kept as slaves by the victors, though the idea of slavery then differed marginally from slavery now, and for the Israelites even more so. God instructed through Moses that slaves be treated as human beings, and freed after seven years of service, no excuses (unless the slaves themselves requested to stay by their masters' side).

And besides the point, God himself clearly banned rape in the Torah. "Take these" and "Use the plunder" are too multi-functional to ascribe only a single (negative) connotation.

Excellent points my friend!

Let's say in 300 years it will be commonplace to take in people from other countries and wait on them hand and foot.

If God asked us to suddenly become the servants to our neighbors from the South, how odd would that be for us today? So God had to work with the level at which HUMANITY was at, at the time.

When people say "Oh why did God tell people to do such and such!" it really is disingenuous. Completely, so.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

The slaughtering of women and children called for was due to the level of evil they were involved in as a culture. If even one was spared, their beliefs could bring darkness into Gods people (As it has before, many times).

Kind of like King Solomon. When he married countless women, those women brought their pagan religions with them. As a result, Solomon erected temples for his wives to worship their gods.

As a result, pagan religions mixed with the religion of Yahweh in Israel and problems arose left and right. Syncretism at it's finest. XD

[Go]

I spent a lot of time debating this very thing with people. It boils down to this:

Slavery was commonplace back then, and even today, believe it or not, in other countries.

The slaughtering of women and children called for was due to the level of evil they were involved in as a culture. If even one was spared, their beliefs could bring darkness into Gods people (As it has before, many times).

If you are unwilling to believe that allowing people of other cultures into your society will ultimately have an influence over your society, then I cannot tell you any more.

And yes, even children. Genetics can be passed down-and believe it or not, God is a heck of a lot smarter than we are. He knows more than we ever will, and there are levels of wickedness that can be passed on (Sins [curses, people!] of the fathers will be passed down to the children) even in a child.

If you think about the level of wickedness that was popular then (And sometimes even now) it really makes you ill. Back then, before the perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ to make atonement for sins, literally entire societies had to perish to prevent their destructive and evil ways from spreading-they were so ingrained and without remedy.

Think about it-from a Biblical point of view-the cooking alive of infants on the hands of demonic idols, the harlotry of idol worship (literally sexual practices in worshipping their idols-which were actually demons) and all of the awful things committed, in order to stay pure it was necessary in that time.

Further, conquering armies (Assyrians, ahem) would routinely rape and murder the women, skin alive the men, and generally torture their captives, in ways that would make you sick. Did God ask His people to do these things? No. God is not cruel.

Further still, in case if nobody has noticed-this is a terrible world. If you wish to concentrate and focus on things you feel are wrong in the Bible, why not more productively spend your time fighting actual wrongful slaughters that occur even today?

This is why people who spear each other to death and worship tree frogs can be redeemed in the name of Jesus, because there finally is a Perfect Sacrifice of atonement.

The only thing I don't understand about what you said is the children part and things being passed down. You're saying if my parents happened to be wicked, I should receive their same punishment simply for being their child? If both of a child's parents happened to be criminals or even worse, murderers, they should be killed the second they are brought into this world merely by association? They don't have a chance to live a life because of something their parents did? What about those accidentally born in prostitution groups? Maybe that's not the level of wickedness you speak of, but even still. Why should an innocent baby be punished?

[Peanut]

The only thing I don't understand about what you said is the children part and things being passed down. You're saying if my parents happened to be wicked, I should receive their same punishment simply for being their child? If both of a child's parents happened to be criminals or even worse, murderers, they should be killed the second they are brought into this world merely by association? They don't have a chance to live a life because of something their parents did? What about those accidentally born in prostitution groups? Maybe that's not the level of wickedness you speak of, but even still. Why should an innocent baby be punished?

Kind of like King Solomon. When he married countless women, those women brought their pagan religions with them. As a result, Solomon erected temples for his wives to worship their gods.

As a result, pagan religions mixed with the religion of Yahweh in Israel and problems arose left and right. Syncretism at it's finest. XD

This is why that command was given, however it is a command which was given just to the Israelites when they were invading Canaan. And, might I add, that they didn't follow it and as a result they ended up mixing Pagan religions with the religion of Yahweh before King Solomon (see the Book of Judges). It is uncertain whether there is a connection between all sin and genetics. Personally, I don't think there is because if sin is genetic then it eliminates choice to either sin or not.

[termyt]

Radical Dreamers mention of Deuteronomy 21:10-14 is important.

It’s not at all about plunder and rape. To take a few verses commanding the destruction of some people and the enslavement of others is what sites like evilbible do (I had a good laugh there, myself). They love to take things out of context, with no cultural understanding or other relevant verses. Their purpose is to confuse, not teach. They are among the most banal of all philosophers – those who desire confusion over understanding.

The Israelites, because God is good, had laws that were actually revolutionary for their time in the rights they promised. In most cultures, slaves had no rights at all. They were property with no more worth than a chair or a table. The Israelites, on the other hand, were required to respect the humanity of their slaves.

Also, the wages of sin is death. Those who refuse God’s calling and reject His ways are subject to death. We are His creation and thus He not only demands our worship, He deserves it. The Canaanites were not unaware of God – Israel himself, as a descendent of Abraham came from the land of Canaan. The Canaanites had rejected the God of Abraham and Lot and forgotten the lessons of Sodom and Gomorrah and chosen idolatry. So, in other words, they had it coming. Believe me, those who reject Christ will not fare better when their time comes. This is the very core of justice – those who unrepentantly do wrong must be punished. That we all deserve this same punishment, but have the hope of new life in Christ is the definition of mercy.

It’s not fair to judge a culture from 4000 years ago with the morals and standards of our culture today. Our culture has evolved to where it is today because of the advancements made by those ancient cultures. The OT actually defines rights and legal status way beyond those that were the norm of the day. It may appear that women and foreigners where undervalued or discriminated against, but considering most of Israel’s neighbors gave them no rights at all, God’s law is extremely progressive.

[Etoh*the*Greato]

I think it's also important to note that for centuries (and this was in fact in effect until relatively recently) it was customary to take slaves of a people you conquered - and that's exactly what the Israelites did when they took the promised land. It was not handed to them peacefully, and one would be crazy to surrender one's home to an invading force. It was taken, by force. War is unfortunate, but it is not pleasant. It is never pleasant.

[Gabriel 9.0]

Well some people sadly try to use the Lord's word as a excuse to commit a evil act. Some even take what is mentioned in the OT to seriously such as the Ceremonial laws still being important when in reality they are done away with. However The Lords Ten Commandments are still very important which is shown countless of times in both the OT and NT. I feel that war is only necessary when its a situation like WW 2.


Most of what Deuteronomy covers is about the conquest of Cannan.
And keep in mind these people the Israelites went to war against were offending God.

[termyt]

Well some people sadly try to use the Lord's word as a excuse to commit a evil act. Some even take what is mentioned in the OT to seriously such as the Ceremonial laws still being important when in reality they are done away with. However The Lords Ten Commandments are still very important which is shown countless of times in both the OT and NT. I feel that war is only necessary when its a situation like WW 2.


Most of what Deuteronomy covers is about the conquest of Cannan.
And keep in mind these people the Israelites went to war against were offending God.

I would tread lightly here. The OT laws have not been "done away with," but their purpose has been fulfilled. At this point, the difference is mostly semantical, but we do not keep the sacrifices and ceremonies because Christ's sacrifice and resurrection have fulfilled our requirements before the law so that we are made blameless in God's sight not because the laws no longer matter.

[Gabriel 9.0]

I would tread lightly here. The OT laws have not been "done away with," but their purpose has been fulfilled. At this point, the difference is mostly semantical, but we do not keep the sacrifices and ceremonies because Christ's sacrifice and resurrection have fulfilled our requirements before the law so that we are made blameless in God's sight not because the laws no longer matter.

True, I was just referring to the ceremonial laws, I meant to type that they represented on how Christ died on the cross for us centuries later.