Zelda MMO?

[josh_manga]

Donno if someone' brought this up, as i've been gone for years now.

I've been reading forums and discussions about this idea, and the general populous seems divided over the concept.

Some of the best idea's i've seen in support of a Zelda MMO have been the following:

Give players options to pick from various races in Hyrule, avoiding the presence of 10000000 players all playing Link.

Make use of the different tools from all the games, not just one given set.

Make use of the typical Zelda format of Hearts instead of HP and leveling and typical MMO grinding incentive, thus removing senseless grinding from the game.

Some mistakes i've seen people make in opposition to a Zelda MMO is that they think the formula for Zelda would have to change, i don't think it would. Fact is there is a small but growing number of MMO's now that are not RPG's, and Zelda could be formatted as one of these non RPG-MMO's.

What do you all think? Rather than discussing whether or not Nintendo should make a Zelda MMO, discuss how it could work, and what should be left out.

Looking forward to your thoughts.

[Makachop^^128]

wow this could be either really really cool or really lame I'm interested on how this will turn out.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Why not just an entirely different epic MMO instead?

[Dante]

Hmm... I need to play more MMOs, or maybe I shouldn't play MMOs (tends to get addicted to video games with literal shaking withdrawal symptoms) but I think a Zelda MMORPG could work, but would have to be differentiad from games like WoW. And, sure there are multiple races, but everyone wants to be the humoid race and play as link... mostly because Zelda is a one-player deal for the most part, Link being the most isolationist/introvert in the world short of me (His being different in that he has Zelda)... maybe that's how I became so introverted, Link was a role-model for me in my youth... well at least I don't run around in a green tunic anymore ^_^. And my tunic at least had pants O_O. Proof of pants:



So my questions would be as follows:

1) How do you make an RP that revolves around Link like he's some kind of god while making the possibility of being Link a non-option (lest EVERYONE will want to be Link).

2) What does the world even look like? Hyrule's geography changes faster then the US political climate.

3) What is the background story? I mean, mobilizing armies to beat back the forces of Gannon is cool and all, but it sounds a little bit derivative of LOTR. The story would have to need more players then link to be a success...

In essense story story, good graphics card and more story.

[LadyRushia]

Moved to Gamers Galore.

[josh_manga]

"Why not just an entirely different epic MMO instead?"

Because then this would be a different discussion thread altogether! You start the thread and i'm sure people will respond to it.

1) How do you make an RP that revolves around Link like he's some kind of god while making the possibility of being Link a non-option (lest EVERYONE will want to be Link).

The focus of the game could be more on the players than the character of Link. In the beginning, Link was named thus as a pun, as he was the link between the players and the world of Hyrule. The games have since lost this point. Zelda was also one of the earlier games to allow players to rename the main character.

2) What does the world even look like? Hyrule's geography changes faster then the US political climate.

The world would have to be a World to be sure, and not just the small kingdom of Hyrule. In the games we've seen other worlds, parallel dimensions, and subterranean realms, so i don't see a problem regarding world content. As far as looks, i did like the world as it was presented in Twilight Princess, but needs to be much more open, with more random caves and dungeons to explore, some of which could be individually instanced dungeons, which seems common these days.

3) What is the background story? I mean, mobilizing armies to beat back the forces of Gannon is cool and all, but it sounds a little bit derivative of LOTR. The story would have to need more players then link to be a success...

Backstory. Good topic of discussion. Ganon is a good badguy, but old and needs to be retired, especially since he is Link's personal foe. But we've seen other foes in the stories, and also some instances where Ganon has henchmen, and those could be struggling for power. Supposedly Ganon is only revived every 100 years, so the game could take place somewhere between those instances. Some people i've read recommend a pre-Wind Waker Hyrule, but i suggest a pre-Minish cap hyrule, as that seems to be the oldest in the timeline, and predates Link altogether. Perhaps the game could begin at the founding of Hyrule, immediately after its creation by the three goddesses, and the world is still open for discovery.

One of the things i've always enjoyed about Zelda is the adventure/exploration aspect, and i think the game should put just a little more focus on that than most Zelda games have, and certainly more than most MMO's.

Any suggestions about playable races, game mechanics, inventory design, controls, interface, plot, quests, character sheets, or weapons and tools?

Feel free to bring your own ideas to the board, this isn't my personal project or anything, it's just a "what if".

@Pascal

Don't think there exists any pictures of me as link, but if there were i'd post them too XP

I do still have a Link hat somewhere though.

As for isolationism, Link is growing in his network. OOT had Navi, MM had Tatl, OOT had several chicks all over him, at least in fanfic. Zelda/Shiek/Tetra, Midna, various animal helpers such as Epona and Kiki the monkey, the rebel faction in Twilight Princess that helped free Castletown. Link really isn't alone anymore, there are other people busy doing things in the sidelines.

Also, as far as dungeon design goes, from a badguy perspective, how stupid would you have to be to make a dungeon security system so poor that one adolescent could fight his way through it with no help whatsoever? By all rights Ganon should have the foresight to put puzzles in his dungeons that Link couldn't solve by himself.

But then, Ganon has the Triforce of Power, not Wisdom, so maybe i'm giving him too much credit

More thought for food.

How about a triple thread cord?

Triforce: Power, Wisdom, Courage.
Hyrule Guardians: Knights, Sages, Shieka.
Hyrule Races: Gorons, Zoras, Hylians.

There are other races, but these three always tie in together, and i think they were the first three to have made alliances together as well.

We've played as some of these races in Majora's Mask, so people should have a feel sortof how they might possibly play in action.

If you pick Zora, you could handle all the water puzzles in a dungeon, while a Goron player handles the firetraps. A Hylian could fork out the rupies and buy the respective tunics, or focus on the archery to protect their Zora and Goron friends from enemies while they focus on their respective tasks.

We'll, i've turned out a lot of ideas, looking forward to seeing some other people's. But remember, i'd like to see what you think SHOULDN'T be in a Zelda MMO as well, and some good reasons why.

[Nate]

How about a triple thread cord?

More like "How about a triple post because I don't know what an edit button is!"

The world would have to be a World to be sure, and not just the small kingdom of Hyrule. In the games we've seen other worlds, parallel dimensions, and subterranean realms, so i don't see a problem regarding world content.

Well remember, Hyrule is just one kingdom in the world that the Zelda games take place in. In the original LoZ, Link was a wanderer from outside of Hyrule, who got involved in Hyrule's affairs because he was a nice guy.

Further, we have seen other lands, notably Holodrum and Labrynna, in the games.

So I agree, there's definitely room for other lands or kingdoms in the Zelda universe.

[josh_manga]

Minor abrasiveness unappreciated.

That out of the way, yes, Holodrum and Labrynna are exactly what i'm thinking of, thanks. I had forgotten the names, since i'd only heard of them and haven't played those games.

[TriezGamer]

I realize this entire thread is essentially about a theoretical game that doesn't (and my honest hope, never will) exist, but as a fan of both Zelda and MMORPGs, I'm gonna throw in an observation here...

One of the things i've always enjoyed about Zelda is the adventure/exploration aspect, and i think the game should put just a little more focus on that than most Zelda games have, and certainly more than most MMO's.

This idea is inherently flawed. Exploration as a focus in MMORPGs is virtually non-existant, not because developers haven't tried, but because it's just not possible to do. Also, most players don't seem to honestly care, as they're preoccupied with more loot, more exp, etc. Those players that do care can explore the game world thousands of times faster than the developers can create it, and will have the content explored so quickly that exploration goes right out the window. While this works with a single-player adventure, it doesn't work in a persistent, online world.

Think about how large existing Zelda worlds are, and then consider how long it takes to explore one. Now consider how long it probably took them to create that world, as-is, and then consider the amount of time the average MMORPG player would spend on the game. Unfortunately for those who DO enjoy exploration (like myself), there is no magical 'create more interesting stuff' button that developers can press to make a bigger world to explore. It all takes man-power, and a lot of it.

The very fundamental nature of an MMO itself prevents exploration-for-the-sake-of-exploration from being a major gameplay element. The only game that might POSSIBLY get away with that is EVE due to it's sci-fi, open universe, model. There's not really much to do or look at while exploring in space, either.

[josh_manga]

Triez,

you make a few important points there, though i think the idea isn't flawed, but the execution.

Exploration for the sake of exploration would be pointless, and i don't think is should be "the" focus, but merely a stronger one. Exploration in MMORPG's seems to be based on character strength, meaning you simply go to the next area when the monsters there don't kill you as quickly, or when the monsters in the current area don't give good drops anymore or yield enough exp.

Exploration in Zelda was open, until you met a roadblock, then the roadblock would open if you had the appropriate tool. Monsters in all the areas were generally the same, some stronger than others, but there was never a fear the one-hit-kill. I suppose what i'm considering to be exploration is the mystery of "the new area". If all areas are open, there's no mystery, and you get noobs going to places and getting ahead of the game, so to speak.

Zelda worlds aren't that large, OOT was pretty small, as was LTTP and the original Zelda. Even WW and TP aren't near the scale of a fully fledged MMORPG. WOW has what, two continents? Zelda has one to two kingdoms tops, sometimes as small as an island. The only reason it takes long at all to completely explore a Zelda map is because it takes a while to get all the tools to remove the roadblocks, or complete storylines that open them.

Some things differentiate Zelda from your typical RPG though. Loot isn't that big a deal, and exp is non-existent. I suppose loot consists of Rupees, of which there is an overabundance in a typical Zelda game, hearts and bombs and arrows which are just ammo and sustenance, better tools and newer tools, which are found in dungeons, not from typical field monsters.

So, for Zelda sake, a Zelda MMO would have to feel more like Zelda, but to appease MMO players, would have to have more than rupees and junk as drops from normal monsters.

I do think, however, that removing exp as necessary for character growth would remove the grinding and free the players from that sort of gaming mindset. If players enjoy grinding, i say there are plenty of free Korean and Chinese games on the market that support that. Heaven knows i've played a good portion of them.

This is why i stated in my initial post that a Zelda MMO should not be considered yet another MMORPG.

[CrimsonRyu17]

I haven't played many Zelda games, only TP, but all this talk of wanting MMO exploration is forcing me to off-topicly suggest Mabinogi, a free MMO that I've been playing for a good 4 weeks now.

A somewhat small and extremely huge continent and plenty to explore, as well as many, many dungeons. It took me nearly 3 rl hours to just circle the Iria continent. I've never had to grind either, as its combat system is based on strategic use of skills and not lvl. 3 races to pick from (human, elf, giant FTW) that have transformations. There's a lot more I haven't even touched on.

So yeah, if you're looking for something close to what I've been reading, I believe Mabinogi is something you should check out. Or, y'know, you can sit and ponder about how an MMO that will probably never be made will work?

[KupoTony]

How about a Zelda World like the .Hack// series for a MMORPG.

The game will have to have a Real Time Clock,24 hours,and the World will have to have elements that will make the game hard to level up.
Time will be a limit.
Elements required to go from a place to another will be neccesary,as a sort of a frontier that needs permision to pass,or a item that allows you to pass.

Also special Individuality:could be a special skill,weapon,power,or permission given specifically to each characters,that will force others to join a team,or group(this is apart from Race skill)

The World moderators will balance the flow of gameplay.

You will have your own house,some could have works,like blacksmith,carpenters,etc...

The Story could be between a time where the races spoke of the times of a hero that will come to save hyrule.
The Enemy would be like a group of bad people(cults,mages,warlords) that heard of these(prophecies),and will try to make the prophecies come not to occur.
These are cults that heard and learned how to use powers like that of the people from the twighlight realm learned(the interlopers),and so to break the seal put on Ganon.
The Princess and Link has passed away and became legends,peace remained in Hyrule,but evil remained in people as they knew so well the prophecies,they tried anything for The hero and the princess to not return.

So It's up to the races to stand out,Hylians,Gorons,Zoras,Kokiries(you all forgot),and as new,fairies in human forms with the role to heal,guard,temporaly augment defense and might to all the races.

All against The Evil Kingdom that will fight to break the seal on Ganon.

Also,as a plot the blood line of Link will be a revelation when the heroes know who are Link's forefathers in their timeline,and they must be kept in secret as others search for them to put death to them.

So The main theme is 'Save The Blood Line'.

[TriezGamer]

So yeah, if you're looking for something close to what I've been reading, I believe Mabinogi is something you should check out. Or, y'know, you can sit and ponder about how an MMO that will probably never be made will work?

I've played Mabinogi. And spent nearly $300 on it. It's fun, don't get me wrong, but it really doesn't take that long to explore.

[CrimsonRyu17]

I've played Mabinogi. And spent nearly $300 on it. It's fun, don't get me wrong, but it really doesn't take that long to explore.

It does when you're on foot, even as a giant who are slightly faster than humans. xD

I only just recently spent $10 on a white cotton ostrich so if you have a mount, I'd imagine it doesn't take as long.

[josh_manga]

CrimsonRyu17,

"Or, y'know, you can sit and ponder about how an MMO that will probably never be made will work?"

Hypothesis and intellectual exercise is what keeps us awake. It's better for your braincells to create ideas than it is to respond to flashing lights on your monitor. (haha! this coming from a game addict!)

But thanks for bringing up Mabinogi.

I was forgetting about Mabi's exploration aspects, however they do tend to be more like magical archaeology, though that would be something worth including. Seems like Zelda has had something similar, TP's wolf senses used to find and fight the Poe's for example.

KupoTony,

Thanks for adding so much to the discussion!

Kokiri, i'm sure i hadn't forgotten them, disregarded maybe. They only exist in OOT, and are theoretically transformed in WW (not sure about the online debates of the existence of the Kokiri after Hyrule flooded) but there is the problem of them not being able to exist outside of the Kokiri Forest.

That could be a myth meant to protect them, or they could be included as NPC's local to the forest only.

Storywise, i like it! Two issues i have, Ganon and Zelda. I'm just not sure Ganon fits in a MMO, although it would be cool to see him taking on 2-8 players at once. He'd have to have an improved bag of tricks though, seeing as how one Link can take him down. Perhaps players should be nerfed or something, handicapped somehow, making them on a lower footing than Link was. Obviously no one could have access to the Master Sword, prophecy and all.

No Zelda must mean one of three things.

1. This happens before the events detailed in the premise of Zelda: Adventures of Link aka Zelda 2

2. Zelda is hiding in disguise/has amnesia/or is already kidnapped/cursed and therefore her whereabouts are not known or she simply isn't central to the game. Of course she could remain as an NPC and still be a peripheral character.

3. The Royal Family line has been disintegrated and there is no Zelda because there was no princess to be born with that name.

If you aren't familiar with Zelda 2's premise, it's basically that the first Zelda ever born was cursed to sleep forever until a hero awoke her by placing crystals in six temples. Because of the princess's fate, and because of her brother, the king's role in what happened, he ruled that every princess born to the royal family would be named Zelda.

Of course, nothing was ever said about younger sisters, so perhaps Zelda has already been killed, and saving the royal bloodline means saving the younger princess or something?

The evil kingdom trying to break the seal on Ganon reminds me of the plot to the second Zelda in another way. Ganon's minions were seeking to capture Link and use his blood on Ganon's ashes to resurrect him.

[TriezGamer]

It does when you're on foot, even as a giant who are slightly faster than humans. xD

I only just recently spent $10 on a white cotton ostrich so if you have a mount, I'd imagine it doesn't take as long.

Mabinogi's world seems bigger than it is due to having a few extremely large open spaces - but when you realize that those few large open spaces are basically everything the game has, you'll find it's really not that big compared to a lot of other MMORPGs.

What Mabinogi excels at is making the entire surface of it's world useful. There's basically nowhere in the game that is unused -- and that also helps to reinforce the idea that the world is large.

I'm not sure how much MMORPG experience you have -- Mabinogi is far larger than the worlds in most single-player games, but in the realm of MMORPGs, it's below average.


I do, however, agree that a Zelda MMORPG would certainly need to have some sort of exploration element in it to really capture the Zelda aesthetic -- I just don't really see it working.

[josh_manga]

I was thinking of the Wii the other day, and since i do not own one what i was thinking was primarily speculation, but from my understanding it has some sort of online networking capability, correct?

So perhaps players could form a party from their local network or friends list, and only those in the party would experience the world of Hyrule together, instead of millions of players at once.

Like a personalized/instanced Hyrule similar to what a lot of MMO's do with dungeons. Certain areas would always be the same, but others could change each time you log in.

The party leader's game progress and info would determine what content was in the instanced world.

For example, if the party leader has the level two sword from the fire dungeon, then when the party goes there, the sword is already gone. But if the party leader changes positions and the new leader doesn't have the sword then when the party goes back, the treasure will be there.

[josh_manga]

Well, i guess posts after a certain date cannot be edited? Anyway, if this doesn't necro a thread, i'd just like to add a few more thoughts.

What if players could be good or bad? And i don't mean an alignment system, though that would be interesting (stealing from the shop owner in Link's Awakening...) but playing as the good guys or the bad guys. Evil Zoras, Moblins, Lizalfos, etc... PVP could consist of friendly tournaments or all out battles between sides.

Dungeons could be populated with players from both sides, the good side trying to infiltrate the dungeon to retrieve some valuable artifact while the bad side tries to defend it.

Small tunnels and caves that are peppered all over the place in nearly every Zelda game could be randomly generated, both the location of the entrance (like Mabinogi) and the shape of the cave/dungeon (Rogue-like). The caves could have multiple aspects, such as bomb points, hookshot points, digging for treasure, arrow triggers, spell triggers, etc... so even if you find a cave, maybe you can't get through it without the proper tools, but still get through part of it to find some treasure.

Day and Night cycle. What if the bosses were not only monsters, but generals, and these generals would sometimes travel out of their dungeons to attack villages, or maybe they controlled several dungeons. If you travel through a dungeon and get to the boss room at the wrong time of day, you'd have to wait till the boss gets back, and maybe set up an ambush.

Since Zelda has gone 3D, i can't think of a single title that hasn't used the Targeting method for combat. It would be very annoying to try and target an enemy that is on the other side of a party member, only to target the member instead (assuming we're not using a mouse, think typical Zelda controls) so what if the Targeting only worked on monsters outside town and NPC's in town? What about party buffs and heals? Make them work as an AOE, all the party has to do is stand near you and they are affected. You don't have to click on them or target them, you can stay focused on the enemy the whole time. Maybe even not show the party's health on your screen (they never show the enemy's health, you always have to guess) so the party will have to communicate well, or just have a dedicated healer standing by or running around healing everyone.

It's not a perfect system, but it is something different.

[Nate]

Dungeons could be populated with players from both sides, the good side trying to infiltrate the dungeon to retrieve some valuable artifact while the bad side tries to defend it.

Forcing dungeons to be Capture the Flag PvP isn't a good way to get new players interested in the game. Getting griefed by older/experienced players isn't fun for newbies. You'd need regular dungeons too, not just PvP dungeons.

Small tunnels and caves that are peppered all over the place in nearly every Zelda game could be randomly generated, both the location of the entrance (like Mabinogi) and the shape of the cave/dungeon (Rogue-like).

I'm going to assume you mean "when the game is created" as opposed to stuff like Pokemon Mystery Dungeon, because having dynamically placed/designed dungeons is pretty much impossible for an MMO to pull off, due to the fact that there would likely always be someone in the cave, and it wouldn't be able to change with someone inside it. To which I must say I disagree strongly. Things that are designed and purposeful are much more fun than crap randomly slapped together.

If you travel through a dungeon and get to the boss room at the wrong time of day, you'd have to wait till the boss gets back, and maybe set up an ambush.

That would be unfair and annoying to people who can only play at certain times of day due to work and school schedules. Locking people out from content for no good reason is a bad idea.

(assuming we're not using a mouse, think typical Zelda controls)

Then the game is already doomed. MMOs do not control like single player games for a reason.

Make them work as an AOE, all the party has to do is stand near you and they are affected.

Any serious MMO player will tell you this is literally the worst idea ever. You don't want your tank to not get healed because he was 1 pixel outside of the magic circle.

Maybe even not show the party's health on your screen

Okay, no, I take that back. This is literally the worst idea ever.

It's not a perfect system, but it is something different.

A steering wheel made out of cheese is something different, but it's an awful idea and no one should do it.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

I'm going to assume you mean "when the game is created" as opposed to stuff like Pokemon Mystery Dungeon, because having dynamically placed/designed dungeons is pretty much impossible for an MMO to pull off, due to the fact that there would likely always be someone in the cave.

Not always. Plenty of MMOs make caves and dungeons as instances. In case nobody may know what an instance is, it's essentially a copy of a dungeon specifically for that player or group of players. So two people could walk into a dungeon entrance together, but if they aren't partied, they'll both be alone once they step in.

WoW does on a basis. But other games like Guild Wars have entire worlds set as instances, and only have towns as non-instances.

[josh_manga]

Mabinogi also does this, but the dungeon is generated based on placing items on an altar. Special items generate a special dungeon, and generic items generate a regular dungeon. The dungeon is not only created specially for that party or individual, but is also randomly generated with monsters, treasure, and traps. I played this game for about two months straight, along with many other people, so i know just how well it works for them.

The night/day cycle was just an idea i'd had for a while, and it wouldn't be based on real time anyway. But i agree, the anticlimactic boss room entrance would be very deflating and probably kill the game.

I've also been pondering the possibility of having the towns be persistent, like in Guild Wars, and the rest of the world be instanced, this way the game wouldn't have to play like there are THOUSANDS of Link wannabes. No kill stealing, just you and your party. This would help preserve the feel of the Zelda games to some extent, as it's usually just Link and one or two allies against the forces of evil. But in town there could be lots of players running around doing all the MMO stuff like auctioning, crafting, trading, etc...
If combat were limited to just you, a couple allies, and a few monsters per screen (as opposed to 50 or however many were in that Leeroy Jenkins video i saw) using a controller instead of a keyboard and mouse could work. There've been plenty of multiplayer action games that use controllers, some better than others, and WASD and mouse could be left open as an option for those who desire that rather than a controller.

Zelda has always had an alarm for low health, and some games i've seen give visual cues regarding a character's health. If not showing an ally's health is such a bad idea, can you come up with a better, different way of doing it than having floating health bars? Personally i detest them, they clutter the screen, get in the way of targeting, and serve as a block to my suspension of disbelief in the game. Placing them on the side as part of the HUD is better, but still clutters, leaving less of the screen available to actually play on.

Perhaps the AOE heal could affect the entire room, but be strongest near the epicenter. I'm just trying to think of new ways of doing things based on MMO traditions that i find annoying. Trying to target an ally that is surrounded by monsters, while targeting the monsters instead because they block my pointer only gets me dead allies. Some games have button selection for allies, but i don't know if all of them do.

Nate, if you disagree, that's fine, but please keep this civil, some of your comments come across as combative and can be taken personally. I don't post my ideas here so i can be emotionally assaulted, and i don't want to assault anyone else in return. It's a tendency i have and i struggle with getting overly defensive when i feel attacked.

Again, i can handle dissent, but please help me keep this friendly.
But thank you for your contribution! My last post was late at night and some bad ideas did fall through the cracks.

[MomentOfInertia]

A steering wheel made out of cheese is something different, but it's an awful idea and no one should do it.

I bet you could sell those if you marketed them right.

The night/day cycle was just an idea i'd had for a while, and it wouldn't be based on real time anyway. But i agree, the anticlimactic boss room entrance would be very deflating and probably kill the game.

Maybe if you clear the dungeon fast enough you can lay an ambush before the boss finishes his patrols. and if you're too slow he comes up behind you or something...

Zelda has always had an alarm for low health, and some games i've seen give visual cues regarding a character's health. If not showing an ally's health is such a bad idea, can you come up with a better, different way of doing it than having floating health bars? Personally i detest them, they clutter the screen, get in the way of targeting, and serve as a block to my suspension of disbelief in the game. Placing them on the side as part of the HUD is better, but still clutters, leaving less of the screen available to actually play on.

In a few of the games Link actually flashed red when his health was low. You could do that, and/or some other visual cues that you have to pay attention to]Perhaps the AOE heal could affect the entire room, but be strongest near the epicenter. I'm just trying to think of new ways of doing things based on MMO traditions that i find annoying. Trying to target an ally that is surrounded by monsters, while targeting the monsters instead because they block my pointer only gets me dead allies. Some games have button selection for allies, but i don't know if all of them do.[/QUOTE]

You could do a general AOE heal with health restored proportional to distance from the caster.

Or for targeted heal on a gamepad, you could have an initial command pops up a dial on screen an you use the stick to select which ally you heal, allies out off range get greyed out. the problem with this idea is it limits party size to 8 maybe 9 people and you have to configure how they're arranged on the dial beforehand.


This is a neat idea, shame it'll probably never happen.

[josh_manga]

It may not happen as zelda, but who knows? years down the road, some programmer reads this, and...

I like the dial idea, seems like i've seen something similar somewhere... maybe it just seems like a Zelda thing, what with Wind Waker's use of the C stick for using the titular item, and OOT's port to gamecube (i hated playing the ocarina with the C stick). Perhaps, rather than greying out party members that are too far away, they just wouldn't show up on the list, which would make a shorter list, and only those with less than full health would even show up as well, which means you wouldn't accidentally heal someone with full health.

Also, maybe there could be multiple bosses, and they would cycle through different times of day, so you could play the same dungeon multiple times and have a different challenge at the end, or maybe the difference between bosses would simply be cosmetic, or subtle differences like one is faster while another does more damage and another has more health. Defeating all three bosses would grant additional bonuses to things like heart pieces, while defeating the same boss over and over again gains only Rupies to those who've done it, while new party members get full rewards.

[MomentOfInertia]

I was thinking of halo Wars actually. you put the people on a ring. press a button or pull a trigger, push the stick in a direction (or leave it centered to self-heal) and press another button to cast.

The problem with adding and removing icons is that then you have to stop and check where the guy you want is in the list, having a preset ring makes it faster.

[josh_manga]

True, so maybe the out of range and fully healed would be greyed out, and greyed out people get skipped on the ring, even though they are there, so they don't get targeted.

So, on to new topic!

Combat! Active combat obviously, none of this turn based stuff or dps. Either you attack or you don't. So... what about character progression? Levels? no? I like Zelda's heart container/piece search, maybe there could be Magic containers as well. Strength is usually upgraded through weapons. I was thinking, maybe have a few weapons that are balanced but different, like a quick but weak short sword, a long sword that is medium speed and medium power, and something like the biggoron sword that is slow but powerful. Biggoron sword users can't carry shields in their hand.

Bows? Boomerangs? what about the crossbow in that Wii expansion for TP?

Different mounts? Not everyone can have Epona after all. Maybe generic Hylian horses and those Bolbin Boars in TP. Travel by whirlwind could come back

[Diamond Dragon]

*pipes up* Boomerangs could possibly be used for stealing stuff from monsters! Just a thought.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Then the game is already doomed. MMOs do not control like single player games for a reason.

I think Dragon Age: Origins disproves this statement. I think it can be done. It doesn't have to be like "typical" zelda controls, but I think it could be tailored as necessary.

[josh_manga]

It's not out yet, but TERA is an upcoming MMO that sports some action rpg combat, and game pad based controls as optional. Also, DDO allows keybindings to go to any device, i've hooked it up to a SNES controller using a USB adapter once, the only reason i still don't use it is because it didn't have enough buttons. I'm waiting for a PlayStation controller adapter. DDO operates pretty much like a first person shooter, think Halo, so the shooting and melee run pretty smoothly in that regard.