A Poll! A Poll! A Real Poll!

[Htom Sirveaux]

I never got into Harry Potter. I think it's all the hype and rabid fanaticsm surrounding it that scared me off. I just don't like crowds.
Besides, the only two fantasy series I've found in recent years that really grab and hold my attention are neither one like the Harry Potter books at all.
However, it's one of those few titles that has got a lot of people reading who would otherwise hardly have found literacy worthwhile if not for it. So, cheers for that, at the very least.

[blkmage]

Lastly:... I srsly don't like the magic in LOTR or Narnia XDDDD...

Well, at least you're consistent.

Harry Potter is entertaining and British. I guess I should read the last book some day. Oh well.

[Nate]

I like Harry Potter. It's a fun cozy series that I need to finish. Oh and Emma Watson is beautiful.

RYAN SHE WAS ONLY LIKE 13 IN THOSE MOVIES.

Don't turn into me. :l

You're just as wrong as everyone else is.

But Ryan, don't you see? That means he's just as right as everyone else is too!

[goldenspines]

@Alcuinus: This is essential to the thread, I think, just so we're on the same page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind%27s_eye
That is the most common usage for the "mind's eye", aka: visual imagination.

[ShiroiHikari]

I never got into Harry Potter. I think it's all the hype and rabid fanaticsm surrounding it that scared me off. I just don't like crowds.
Besides, the only two fantasy series I've found in recent years that really grab and hold my attention are neither one like the Harry Potter books at all.
However, it's one of those few titles that has got a lot of people reading who would otherwise hardly have found literacy worthwhile if not for it. So, cheers for that, at the very least.

You pretty much read my mind.

[TGJesusfreak]

The problem is that the magic portrayed in Harry Potter, D&D, Narnia, whatever is not like magic in the real world. It's completely made up and has no basis whatsoever in reality.

Exactly this.

The key is understanding that it's FANTASY.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

But Ryan, don't you see? That means he's just as right as everyone else is too!

WHAT? METAL GEAR?

[Cognitive Gear]

In this thread:

[MightiMidget]

I've come across multiple "Harry Potter is of the devil" arguments, and whereas I cannot say that I have researched it (I never cared enough), I would never encourage someone to go against their convictions.

But like LadyRushia said, God convicts each person differently.

I read the first 5 Harry Potter books, and then went through some emotional issues where HP became more of a temptation to want to turn to magic instead of God, in which case I ditched them immediately and avoided them for the next two or three years. Now? It's back to not being a problem. I finished the series, and will be seeing the last two movies.

Quality-wise, I don't think Rowling is a great writer, but she is an amazing storyteller. Sometimes I enjoy authors just for their talent whether it be technical aspects of writing, storytelling or both, but don't necessarily care about content (such as, Stephen King. He is an amazing storyteller and writer, but I don't care for his large amount of objectionable content). But, as Smartypants put it, it's a fun, cozy series.

Also, I must reiterate this: Twilight and Harry Potter are not on the same level. Meyers can't write AND she can't tell a story worth beans to save her life. So while I don't think Rowling is the best writer, she's a brilliant storyteller and at least HAS substance to her stories.

EDIT: LOL, CG! xD

[CrimsonRyu17]

I can't get into Harry Potter because Rowling kept describing Harry's fingers as little sausages and every time I read that I craved sausage and scrambled eggs.

[Atria35]

I can't get into Harry Potter because Rowling kept describing Harry's fingers as little sausages and every time I read that I craved sausage and scrambled eggs.

Are you sure you're not thinking about the fat aunt or Dursley?

[CrystalChalice]

My opinion on the Harry Potter issue is the same with my standard on selecting anime and manga: If you're not comfortable with the story, then don't read it at all.

As for the series itself, well, I know it's an interesting story, it's just not interesting enough to catch my attention

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

Yeah, Harry's fingers are never referred to as sausages. The teenage boy is a scrawny runt.

I have to agree that J.K. Rowling is a much better storyteller than she is a writer. It's interesting that you brought up Stephen King. He's both a great storyteller and writer, at least when it comes to anything but editing his novels down to something more manageable! King is also a big fan of the HP books, so I'm not completely off topic.

[CrimsonRyu17]

Are you sure you're not thinking about the fat aunt or Dursley?

It was so long ago I really don't remember the specifics. Regardless, sausages.

[ShiroiHikari]

King is also a big fan of the HP books, so I'm not completely off topic.

Speaking of Mr. King, he also more or less publicly denounced the Twilight series. I may not be the biggest fan of his books but he gets some mad props from me for that.

[Nate]

Yeah but Stephen King also likes the Left Behind books so as far as I'm concerned he's a pathetic loser and I award him zero points.

Seriously you'd think someone with writing skill like him would be able to recognize bad writing when he saw it. Which makes me think he isn't all that good of a writer after all.

[Atria35]

Yeah but Stephen King also likes the Left Behind books so as far as I'm concerned he's a pathetic loser and I award him zero points.

Seriously you'd think someone with writing skill like him would be able to recognize bad writing when he saw it. Which makes me think he isn't all that good of a writer after all.

My vote says someone was holding a gun to his head.

[Etoh*the*Greato]

Speaking of Mr. King, he also more or less publicly denounced the Twilight series. I may not be the biggest fan of his books but he gets some mad props from me for that.

I'ma go with King on this one 1) because personal preference says he's right and 2) Meyers started this fight. She was the first to comment on anything between the two of them and said his writing was terrible.

[MightiMidget]

I'ma go with King on this one 1) because personal preference says he's right and 2) Meyers started this fight. She was the first to comment on anything between the two of them and said his writing was terrible.

Lol! I forgot about that...Meyers may have current fame, but that will probably die in a few years. King's been around forever. Time vs. Present Fame? Time will win...

[Nate]

My vote says someone was holding a gun to his head.

Maybe...but I still can't help but think now that he's an overrated hack.

Time vs. Present Fame?

XTC vs. Adam Ant
Content vs. Form
Fighting for their place in rock and roll
There is no right or wrong

Just when you think it's finished
With XTC on top
Ant music like a phoenix
Flies back up the charts

XTC vs. Adam Ant
Only one will survive
Beatle-based pop vs. new romantic
History will decide

XTC vs. Adam Ant
I can't tell you why
Even the singer from Bow Wow Wow
Can't make up her mind

[MightiMidget]

XTC vs. Adam Ant
Content vs. Form
Fighting for their place in rock and roll
There is no right or wrong

Just when you think it's finished
With XTC on top
Ant music like a phoenix
Flies back up the charts

XTC vs. Adam Ant
Only one will survive
Beatle-based pop vs. new romantic
History will decide

XTC vs. Adam Ant
I can't tell you why
Even the singer from Bow Wow Wow
Can't make up her mind

Um...huh?

[uc pseudonym]

This might be too little, laughably too late, but I want to expand on the point Corrie brought up: Rowling is a professed and practicing Christian. She has gone on the record as saying that the series has Christian allegories.

For the record, my feelings on the series are mixed. I don’t have a strong enough opinion to enter a debate about it for that reason, but I do have strong feelings about the way that Christians interact with entertainment. I’ll try to be neutral and stick to some basic facts.

“I believe in God, not magic.” In fact, Rowling initially was afraid that if people were aware of her Christian faith, she would give away too much of what’s coming in the series. “If I talk too freely about that,” she told a Canadian reporter, “I think the intelligent reader – whether ten [years old] or sixty – will be able to guess what is coming in the books” (Michael Nelson, “Fantasia: The Gospel According to C.S. Lewis”, The American Prospect, vol. 13, no. 4, February 25, 2002)

She was right about that, by the way. If you’re thinking on Christian terms, what happens in the last book becomes obvious. What she’s alluding to is that the last book deals with the theme of death. Did you know that it has direct Bible quotes? Matthew 6:19 and 1 Corinthians 15:26. Admittedly that first one has been quoted ad nauseum, but the second one not so much.

Originally I was going to be more aggressive here and talk about why I bother to enter a discussion like this (hint: it’s similar to why some Christians attack Harry Potter). But I guess that doesn’t stand much of a chance of being read, so here’s hoping a more basic post makes any impact at all.

[Alcuinus]

Wow! I ask that the thread be locked and then I wake up to this? O_O
It's all good though. I managed to read through all the responses and I thank you all for your input. I think this debate (not something I really wanted but that's my fault I think >.<) was very civil. I think I'll leave this thread be after answering Nate and Mr. SmartyPants


@Nate In regard to the pentagram: well... does that even matter? The same thing goes for the Lord's Prayer... They pray it backwards. I thought almost anyone knew that the pentagram becomes an occultic element when it's inverted. I know for a fact that there is an inverted pentagram in FMA (which has more than one thing seriously wrong with it >.> ... I am not getting into that here... or elsewhere! It is my opinion and lets leave it at that. k? ). There are also incantations and mediums and sorcery and blood ceremonies, rituals, etc.. The point is this: To say the two are no similar except in name is willing ignorance of both.

Example: In the Harry Potter books it is possible to perform the medium activity of speaking with the dead. "...Resurrection Stone also allows one to talk to the dead..." (wikipedia... yeah not the best source but somewhat reliable)


@Mr. SmartyPants yeah... sorry about that. That was off topic and unnecessary. I can say though that I have read his books myself at least.


As for myself, I shall cast my poll answer and leave this thread finally. If Nate or Mr. SP respond I will see it but will not be likely to respond.

You have all been reasonable and courteous with your responses and I hope I have been too.

fin

[Nate]

Um...huh?

You need more TMBG in your life.

The same thing goes for the Lord's Prayer... They pray it backwards.

That doesn't make any sort of sense. This sounds like one of those urban legends like the woman who microwaved her cat or Mountain Dew lowers sperm count.

To say the two are no similar except in name is willing ignorance of both.

I'm not saying this to be insulting or confrontational, but how do you know? By your own admittance you avoid things with fictional magic in them, right? So how do you know anything about fictional magic? And saying "I have read websites written by other people who do" doesn't count as an answer.

Because I've played D&D. I've played it for years. I've played Final Fantasy for years. I've watched countless anime, movies, and TV shows with fictional magic. I can tell you with absolute certainty that there is ZERO, absolutely NO similarity between real magic and fictional magic.

I'm not saying you have to go out and rent LotR or buy the DM Guide for 4e and read the Harry Potter books. I'm not saying that at all. As has been said before, if you don't want to read those things, then don't. What I'm saying is I'm not "willingly ignorant" of fictional magic. I've read, played, and watched a lot of things that have fictional magic. I'm more knowledgeable of it than most of the people who write the websites that are all "These are bad and evil and let me tell you why" because those people probably read small excerpts of the things in question and then proceeded to rant about it with no real knowledge of it.

So again, I'm very, very familiar with fictional magic. This is why I can say with 100% certainty that it is NOTHING like real magic and only shares the name.

The only area where you would have a point is that in SOME fictional works (D&D probably being the biggest example) there are magical summoning spells that allow you to summon spirits. Even then it's still not like real magic in that say, when a wizard summons a water elemental, there is actually a place called the Elemental Plane of Water, and water elementals live there, and the wizard is more or less just teleporting it from that place to where he is.

Funny enough, the closest things that can be compared to real magic such as summoning a deity/demon are actually really only done by clerics, not wizards. If that bothers you, hey, I understand. And like I said, it's the only thing that's really close...but to say this represents all fictional magic is absurd, just as it's silly to say that McDonald's represents all fast food.

What it boils down to is, I am a bit insulted by your accusation that I am ignorant, when in actuality I am well-versed in this subject, and would wager that your experience is limited to a handful of things and therefore are less knowledgeable than I am.

Which is fine, to a degree. If you don't like fictional magic, then don't read it! Simple as that, and I respect that. But I am far from ignorant on the subject, which is why I took offense to your statement.

[Alcuinus]

I am a bit insulted by your accusation that I am ignorant, when in actuality I am well-versed in this subject, and would wager that your experience is limited to a handful of things and therefore are less knowledgeable than I am. [...] But I am far from ignorant on the subject, which is why I took offense to your statement.

Oh great :\
Now I'm regretting ever having said anything :\

I honestly had no intention of insulting you and I apologize for having done so. There is no excuse for it.

For this instance, I was in fact referring to the occult practices and not fictional magic. I assumed you did not know of actual occult practices such as inverted pentagrams and Black Mass (where they are said to chant the Lord's Prayer backwards) "which was a parody of the Catholic Mass" (wikipedia... again... sorry).

And as for fictional magic, I have done research specifically on HP since the start of this thread (my own and not someone else's. I have sought direct examples with quotes from the books from unbiased if not favorable [for the books that is] sources) and I can say that there is undeniably more than just a name difference.




I wound up posting! again!!! ugh >.< oh well
Again, I am soooo very sorry for the offence





fin... again... I mean it this time XDDDD

[Etoh*the*Greato]

Who reads the Lord's Prayer backwards? Harry Potter?

[Nate]

I honestly had no intention of insulting you and I apologize for having done so. There is no excuse for it.

Nah dude, it's cool. You know how many people I've inadvertently (or advertently) insulted on this site? It's gotta be a lot. I can take it as well as I dish it out. Heck, sometimes I dish it out on myself and have to take it!

I assumed you did not know of actual occult practices such as inverted pentagrams

That one is actually true. I know about that one. But the symbol itself doesn't have any power, or otherwise opening Wikipedia would turn your computer into like...some sort of Satan computer. So just using it in an anime or in a book or movie, means nothing. It's just a symbol, it has no power, same as a cross hanging on a necklace has no power.

and Black Mass (where they are said to chant the Lord's Prayer backwards) "which was a parody of the Catholic Mass" (wikipedia... again... sorry).

Unfortunately you've undermined your own point. The very first sentence in the Wikipedia article says, "Black Mass is the name given to a ceremony supposedly celebrated during the Witches' Sabbath" (emphasis mine). In other words, there is no proof that it actually exists, it's folklore. Books have been written about how it might have been performed, but it's all hearsay and conjecture.

Further, the part about chanting the Lord's Prayer, the only place the wiki article mentions that is in one section regarding a fictional book. A work of fiction is hardly proof that this is an actual practice, so again I must consider it urban legend or complete fabrication.

I can say that there is undeniably more than just a name difference.

Then I'm confused as to how people who have fully read the books, seen the movies, and brought forth evidence of Rowling's own Christianity could have come to such a vastly different conclusion than you.

And I can deny it easily. The magic in Harry Potter is nothing like real magic, and the only similarity is the name. There, I just denied it. See how easy that was? I base this on my own knowledge of the magic of Harry Potter, as well as knowing quite a few actual practicing wiccans from other message boards. In fact, quite a few wiccans take offense that people believe that the magic in Harry Potter is anything similar to what they perform...they think it's insulting to their religion.

In fact, a quote:

"If anything, the magic in Rowling's world is even more emphatically imaginary, even further removed from real-world practices, than that of Tolkien or Lewis]Christianity Today[/i] said the magic in Harry Potter is "purely mechanical, as opposed to occultic. That is, Harry and his friends cast spells, read crystal balls, and turn themselves into animals—but they don't make contact with a supernatural world. [It's not] the kind of real-life witchcraft the Bible condemns." Source.

So again...I'm not sure where you're getting any idea that the magic in Harry Potter even remotely resembles real magic. Having a similarity in ritual or a common symbol doesn't make it any more real magic than me covering myself in feathers would make me a chicken. Yeah, chickens are covered in feathers, and I would be covered in feathers, but come on, I would obviously not be a chicken.

[Atria35]

Who reads the Lord's Prayer backwards? Harry Potter?

I think that's what he's saying. But I've read the books, and there's no such thing in there- merely a few words of pseudo-latin.

[Htom Sirveaux]

Rowling is a Christian? I thought I'd heard somewhere she was an atheist. Not that it makes a difference at all credibility-wise, of course. Wonder why I thought that? Maybe I had her confused with another writer.

[MightiMidget]

You need more TMBG in your life.

I have a birdhouse in my soul, how much more in my life can they be?

@Alcuinus - I would recommend a book for you...it's called "Wicca's Charm" by Catherine Edward Sanders. She is a Christian who researched Wicca and other pagan religions and compared them with as little bias as possible, and I believe she did an amazing job.

I haven't researched the subject enough, though I have seen in many instances a "name" of something can mean something else entirely. Kind of like all the "demons" in Buffy the Vampire Slayer are basically just other races, like aliens, from different dimensions. They're not directly...spiritually demonic. This is the same reason why demons in Saiyuki don't bother me, whereas Sebastian in Kuroshitsuji does. One is "In name only" the other is "yes you just made a pact with Satan." <--Doesn't (now that I've referenced large amounts of fiction...)