Out of the Saltshaker and into the...Forums?

[Hiryu]

Um... shouldn't we recognise the Holy Spirit's role in this as well? God wants people to know Him!

Absolutely. But sometimes people just don't care, or they want you to leave them alone. At that point, it's better to leave them alone than stir up hatred/conflict. It would be better to love them and pray for them.

[TWWK]

I hate to put it in this context, but it does sound sort of like trolling if you're pulling people into a community just to express a specific viewpoint and not contribute to the community at large in any way.

It's really in how one does this type of ministry, I think.

In a couple of forums, I contribute in all sorts of posts, and then opened up threads as Q&As - come ask if you want. If not, just ignore me.

In other forums where I'm there almost entirely just for the evangelism, again, I simply say that if anyone has questions, I'm here to answer. Each time, I've gotten an overwhelming response (though admittedly, most questions are by those that want to engage in debate, rather than by those who are seeking or who sincerely want to know more about Christianity).

[Quote=Warrior4Christ]
2. I do enjoy online discussions like this. I'll consider it. (I do wonder how it'll look to that community having people recruited just for that thread...) [/quote]

True - I hadn't thought of that...I dunno. -_-'

[bobcat303]

I can't give you any advice here. I've come to the conclusion I was never meant to be a pastor or a missionary. I've tried talking about God to family and friends and it only comes out sounding awkward and I leave the wrong impression. Like them calling me weird and think I'm getting overly religious. It has left me is dispair!

[color="Blue"][font="Comic Sans MS"][SIZE="6"]But the thing is, the world wouldn't really ever respond well to God. Evangelizing never really was an easy thing to do...the early Christians were hurt doing so by people who didn't like being evangelized to. But if you think God is worth it, then you would do it, even if it does forsake your reputation....and whatnot...[/SIZE][/font][/color]:dance:

[bobcat303]

My solution is simple. I just don't evangelize. XD

That sounds terrible but I mean, Christianity is a major religion in the US. People know what it is, and what it's about. This isn't Jack Chick World where someone mentions Jesus and the other person says "Jesus? Who's that?" If a person isn't already Christian, it's not because they've never heard of Christianity before.

I don't hide my faith, and people will occasionally ask me questions and I do my best to answer them, but I don't normally bring it up because why would I? Jesus said they'll know we're Christians by our love, and I personally feel evangelizing annoys or frustrates people. And annoying and frustrating a person isn't loving them very well. At least I don't feel it is. XD

[color="Red"][font="Arial Black"][font="Comic Sans MS"]Well America isn't the only country an American could evangelize to...[/font][/font][/color]

[Nate]

True, but then you're falling into "missionary" status and not every Christian is called to the mission field.

P.S. America is not a country, there are 23 distinct countries in North America alone, and around 19 in South America. :p

[TopazRaven]

[color="Blue"][font="Comic Sans MS"][SIZE="6"]But the thing is, the world wouldn't really ever respond well to God. Evangelizing never really was an easy thing to do...the early Christians were hurt doing so by people who didn't like being evangelized to. But if you think God is worth it, then you would do it, even if it does forsake your reputation....and whatnot...[/SIZE][/font][/color]:dance:

Um, when did I ever say I was worried about being forsaken or whatever? I just don't know how to talk about it properly. Like seriously, I have no idea what I'm supposed to say.

[TWWK]

Um, when did I ever say I was worried about being forsaken or whatever? I just don't know how to talk about it properly. Like seriously, I have no idea what I'm supposed to say.

Obviously, there's a lot to evangelism and lots of methods. But I guess it doesn't take a whole of preparation to tell a person two things - your personal testimony of how you came to Christ and what God has done in your life, and the gospel message.

[Nate]

But I guess it doesn't take a whole of preparation to tell a person two things - your personal testimony of how you came to Christ

"I was raised in a Christian home and went to church my whole life" doesn't have a whole lot of testimony behind it. And at that point, it's easily countered by "So you didn't come to it by intelligent means, your parents just forced it down your throat."

And while intelligence and religion aren't mutually exclusive (despite what some religious people think), when your response is that it was how you were raised, it doesn't lend itself well to evangelism. I mean, if someone was raised in a racist household, they'd think racism was okay even if it isn't, right?

Okay, now I'm not saying racism is comparable to religion or that religion is as bad as racism...I'm religious so I don't think religion is bad. What I'm saying is that if you were raised a certain way, well, people get raised certain ways all the time, and it's not really a compelling statement. In fact it just makes me look pretty ignorant. I mean my parents raised me and told me about Santa and the tooth fairy and Easter Bunny, and I don't believe in those anymore. So why should I still be religious? That's rhetorical, by the way. XD

[Hansha]

"I was raised in a Christian home and went to church my whole life" doesn't have a whole lot of testimony behind it. And at that point, it's easily countered by "So you didn't come to it by intelligent means, your parents just forced it down your throat."

And while intelligence and religion aren't mutually exclusive (despite what some religious people think), when your response is that it was how you were raised, it doesn't lend itself well to evangelism. I mean, if someone was raised in a racist household, they'd think racism was okay even if it isn't, right?

Okay, now I'm not saying racism is comparable to religion or that religion is as bad as racism...I'm religious so I don't think religion is bad. What I'm saying is that if you were raised a certain way, well, people get raised certain ways all the time, and it's not really a compelling statement. In fact it just makes me look pretty ignorant. I mean my parents raised me and told me about Santa and the tooth fairy and Easter Bunny, and I don't believe in those anymore. So why should I still be religious? That's rhetorical, by the way. XD

I think he means how you came into the relationship with Christ. what happened when your life actually started to change. I was raised in a Christian house and went to church my whole life to and even believed in God, hell, and all that but I wasn't a Christian.

[Nate]

I came into the relationship with Christ because I was raised in a Christian household and went to church my whole life. That's the point I was making. There was never a point where I suddenly was magically transformed into a really for real true Christian. I always have been since I was a kid. The closest I can come is when I was baptized, but even then it wasn't a life-changing experience or anything special, and the only reason I hadn't had one is our church had never offered. When our church offered them (because we finally got a member who had a pool) I was like "Yeah sure, getting baptized is a good thing to do as a Christian, I definitely should do that." So that wouldn't really be a testimony either.

[Maledicte]

I came into the relationship with Christ because I was raised in a Christian household and went to church my whole life. That's the point I was making. There was never a point where I suddenly was magically transformed into a really for real true Christian. I always have been since I was a kid. The closest I can come is when I was baptized, but even then it wasn't a life-changing experience or anything special, and the only reason I hadn't had one is our church had never offered. When our church offered them (because we finally got a member who had a pool) I was like "Yeah sure, getting baptized is a good thing to do as a Christian, I definitely should do that." So that wouldn't really be a testimony either.

Similar. While I was raised in a Christian household and "prayed the prayer" and such even at a young age, God and spirituality was something I latched onto even before I asked my mom to tell me how to "get saved." Many of us haven't had any of those dramatic "I lived a reckless life filled with drugs, alcohol, and sex but now I'm free from all that" conversions.

[mechana2015]

I have a very similar testimony to Maladicte and Nate. It's not really... a dramatic story, and much of the progression one could attempt to claim as God inspired could be just as easily attributed to age and life experience as to faith by someone who didn't find it compelling.

It's easy enough to tell someone how simple it is to do something... much harder in practice.

[TopazRaven]

My testimony wouldn't be the best to give, trust me on that one. I went to church until I was about 13, I got bored and just stopped going, prefering to do what I wanted. Around October last year I started to get curious about Christianity again and I looked some stuff up. I came across some not so nice sites that had me convinced I was the scum of the Earth and that I and everyone I love was going to burn to hell to the point where I was crying and begging God not to let me and my family/friends burn in eternal torment. That isn't exactly inspiring now is it? I'm more likley to scare someone off with that story.

[TWWK]

And while intelligence and religion aren't mutually exclusive (despite what some religious people think), when your response is that it was how you were raised, it doesn't lend itself well to evangelism. I mean, if someone was raised in a racist household, they'd think racism was okay even if it isn't, right?

But why do you believe that our God IS God. Why is He who He is? I hope your answer has something to do with your relationship with Him - and that's an important part of a testimony. You may not convince someone of His existence because of your personal experience (though again, it's up to the Holy Spirit and not us), but you can certainly reveal some of who God is through telling our your relationship with Him. How is He a personal God, unlike the image many have of Him.

Being raised in a Christian household also open doors for conversation about backgrounds - how was the person you're talking to raised? Do they believe in what their parents believe? Isn't there a time when one has to take a belief for their own as truth, rather than as something forced upon us?

There is power behind a typical Christian experience, and it is, I think, very relatable to those who are open to the possibility of God's existence.

My testimony wouldn't be the best to give, trust me on that one. I went to church until I was about 13, I got bored and just stopped going, prefering to do what I wanted. Around October last year I started to get curious about Christianity again and I looked some stuff up. I came across some not so nice sites that had me convinced I was the scum of the Earth and that I and everyone I love was going to burn to hell to the point where I was crying and begging God not to let me and my family/friends burn in eternal torment. That isn't exactly inspiring now is it? I'm more likley to scare someone off with that story.

An important thing to remember is that none of us will come to Christ unless we're convicted of sin. I think most people don't have a good grasp on what sin is, and certainly not on how heavy it is (heck, I forget all the time to price that Christ paid and how offensive sin is to God!).

[TopazRaven]

An important thing to remember is that none of us will come to Christ unless we're convicted of sin. I think most people don't have a good grasp on what sin is, and certainly not on how heavy it is (heck, I forget all the time to price that Christ paid and how offensive sin is to God!).

I know, but I just hate the thought of scaring people. I really don't want to have to put people through the intense fear and the pain that came from that fear that I went through. Not to mention I have tried to talk to my mom about sin and she just won't listen to some of the things I say and once she even told me to stop preaching because she is who she is and she's never going to change. It's so frustrating. Meanwhile I'm also very shy so it's not like I go up to strangers and talk to them to begin with.

I'm not so afraid anymore, but it took time to realize that God does love me and to fully grasp the gift of salvation that Jesus has given me. I finally kind of snapped out of my fear and was like...why am I treating God like he is some evil villian waiting to punish me? That's literally how afraid I was before. I definitly have calmed down a lot since then and I actually have most everyone on CAA to thank for that! You've all taught me so much. I just agonize over my family and friends who don't know Jesus now. I know I need to stop worrying, but it's kind of hard.

[Nate]

But why do you believe that our God IS God.

Because that's how I was raised.

That's all it boils down to. If I was raised Muslim, I'd probably believe that Allah is God. Okay sure, the relationship is there, and that works for me, but it isn't compelling as a testimony. I mean, Muslims believe in Allah, if they didn't have their prayers answered then they probably wouldn't be Muslim. Lots of people who are atheist/agnostic have good things happen to them without attributing it to God.

Someone could argue that the things that happened in my life would have happened the same way even if I was atheist and never prayed once in my life. That's difficult to argue against because maybe they're right. Maybe they're not. It's impossible to say without being able to see alternate timelines.

And that's part of my point. It's not a satisfying answer. I was "brainwashed," that's what they can say. I don't feel like I am, especially since I've fallen away from a lot of the beliefs my parents and church have about religion, but part of me always does wonder.

I don't feel I can turn away from God, but is that because I'm devoted to God, or is it because I'm conditioned to feel that it's bad? If I do feel bad, is it because of God, or is it my own mind causing me to feel bad because it's so firmly implanted into my thoughts?

It's kind of like phobias. If you were to give someone with a fear of snakes a rubber snake, they would probably freak out. Now it's a toy, it's not real, it can't hurt them, but their mind works in such a way that even though it is completely and totally harmless, they're frightened of it. And in fact, giving someone with a phobia of snakes a rubber snake is part of the steps a psychologist would take to help someone get rid of that fear. Someone might say if I turn from God, I'd feel bad at first, but eventually get over it as I came to realize God doesn't exist and can make it on my own. That it's part of the process of being "freed" from the conditioning my parents imposed on me.

Isn't there a time when one has to take a belief for their own as truth, rather than as something forced upon us?

I've never had a real crisis of faith. Not entirely. I've had the same doubts about God and life as every other Christian has, but there's never been a point in my life where I suddenly came to a revelation that "I think God is real outside of how I was raised!" It's always been for me "It makes more sense that what I've been told my whole life is correct than the alternative." Which again...not really logically consistent. A person who was raised in a racist household would think "It makes more sense that whites are superior to blacks, looking at society it's clearly more correct than everyone being equal."

And we can look at that person and say they're absolutely wrong. Just because something "makes more sense" doesn't make it correct, and it even hinges on what you define as sense. Whose sense after all? The sense of most people in the 1800s would be of that person, most people in the modern day have a different sense.

As far as "does the person you're talking to believe what their parents did," I'd be willing to bet most people as they get older realize their parents aren't blameless and perfect, and can form their own opinions outside of what their parents think...which of course would be even further argument against my experiences of being raised Christian. Now that I'm older and more educated, shouldn't I make my own choices instead of how I was raised?

It's definitely not really that good of a testimony is all I'm saying.

[Hansha]

I'm confused. Do you actually think God is real or do you just think you think that because thats what your parents said and how you were raised?

[TWWK]

It's definitely not really that good of a testimony is all I'm saying.

Thanks for all the background. It was really interesting reading about you. But to tell you the truth...I think that your background really IS an interesting testimony. You can relate with a lot of people that maybe I wouldn't be able to, and that many others wouldn't. One real strong point about you, I think, just from seeing your comments here and also on my blog, is that you are very open and willing to see the other side of things. To tell you the truth, it sometimes annoys me to no ends, but only probably because it forces me to think a little more deeply than I'd like.

Many (most?) non-Christians don't want to talk about religion to a person who is unwilling to admit perceived weaknesses in their beliefs and who is unwilling to accept the possibility that other faiths are true. If you ever want to share your faith with others, I think your testimony and just the way you are (hehe) will help you establish relationships and built genuine dialogue better than most.

I just agonize over my family and friends who don't know Jesus now. I know I need to stop worrying, but it's kind of hard.

I don't know if it's bad for you to worry...I mean, their eternal fate is kind of a big deal! And it's awesome that you speak to your mom about God, even though she's had enough of it - it's so hard to speak to those we're close to about God, so it's pretty brave of you to do so!

I would just recommend that at the very least (and you're probably doing this already), pray about your friends and family. Prayer is amazing because it works on so many levels - God RESPONDS to prayers, as the Bible clearly shows, and WE respond to prayer as well. It's mighty and powerful.

[TopazRaven]

Oh trust me, He gets long lengthy whiny prayers about my family and friends several times a day most of the time. I wouldn't blame Him if He wanted to smack me to shut me up or something. xD

[TWWK]

Oh trust me, He gets long lengthy whiny prayers about my family and friends several times a day most of the time. I wouldn't blame Him if He wanted to smack me to shut me up or something. xD

I have a feeling God loves those prayers. I mean...Moses was pretty whiny, I think, when he was trying to save Lot and his family, and God responded positively to each request he gave.

[Nate]

Do you actually think God is real or do you just think you think that because thats what your parents said and how you were raised?

I do believe God is real. I'm just making a point that it's not based on any sound logical backing, but rather, by how I was raised. I've met people that are puzzled that I am very scientific minded (belief in old earth, evolution, etc.) and can't figure out why I also believe in God as it's "unnecessary" in the context of how the universe works. And I honestly don't have any better answer than "That's how I was raised." Which again...isn't really a very good argument.

[TopazRaven]

See, I beliave in the whole old earth, evolution bit to. However, I don't understand why some non-Christians think the world just magically appeared one day because of the big bang theory. If anything that has to be the most unlogical thing I ever heard. It always seemed obvious to me God created the Earth, wither in 7 days or over millions of years. That aside, yeah, God is patiant so hopefully he finds my whinning and pleading endearing instead of annoying. xD

[Hansha]

I do believe God is real. I'm just making a point that it's not based on any sound logical backing, but rather, by how I was raised. I've met people that are puzzled that I am very scientific minded (belief in old earth, evolution, etc.) and can't figure out why I also believe in God as it's "unnecessary" in the context of how the universe works. And I honestly don't have any better answer than "That's how I was raised." Which again...isn't really a very good argument.

K, got it. Sorry, sometimes I misunderstand things in forums.

@Topaz Well, think of it this way. If your constantly whining to him like that it definitely means you're turning to him.

[Okami]

I have a feeling God loves those prayers. I mean...Moses was pretty whiny, I think, when he was trying to save Lot and his family, and God responded positively to each request he gave.

You mean Abraham?

[TWWK]

You mean Abraham?

Haha, yes. Woops.

[TopazRaven]

Moses was kind of a whiny guy to though wasn't he?

[K. Ayato]

I don't believe Abraham was being whiny at all. He heard the Lord telling the angels what He was about to do to those cities. He posed a fair question: "Will you also destroy the righteous with the wicked?"

I don't think Abraham was doing a "pretty please" kind of thing. I mean, wouldn't you want to be absolutely sure God would spare a loved one you knew was also a Believer from divine judgment?

[TWWK]

Yeah, perhaps whiny isn't the right word. Certainly he was insistent as he humbly, but audiciously came before God. Yancey explains it well when he points out that maybe what God wanted was someone to appeal to His sense of mercy - after all, maybe the most important thing to note about the story is that it isn't God who stops relenting first. Abraham quits asking before God keeps giving.

Either way, I think the situation somewhat mirrors Topaz's. God mercifully kept answering Abraham, even though his tone demonstrates that he is afraid that he is bugging God. But it's that important to Abraham to save his family. Keep praying, Topaz!

[Hiryu]

I don't think Abraham was doing a "pretty please" kind of thing. I mean, wouldn't you want to be absolutely sure God would spare a loved one you knew was also a Believer from divine judgment?

I also think Abraham's plead for Sodom and Gomorrah was actually beneficial to God's desire. It shows how evil they were, because not even 10 people out of the whole city were "righteous," only Lot and his family were allowed to escape.

Oh trust me, He gets long lengthy whiny prayers about my family and friends several times a day most of the time. I wouldn't blame Him if He wanted to smack me to shut me up or something. xD

Lol. I suppose whiny prayer is better than none at all though.

[TWWK]

Moses was kind of a whiny guy to though wasn't he?

True. Moses avoided doing what God explictly told him to do, and eventually, God lost His patience. But even then, in His grace, He provided a way to make Moses feel more secure in sending Aaron on the mission as well.