Legend of Zelda Hyrule Geography

[Nate]

your contradiction-free method of joining the games

Well, I hardly think the theory I'm using is contradiction-free. XD Any theory of putting together a timeline of the games is going to have inconsistencies. It's like you said, Miyamoto is more concerned with making a good game first, not making the games fit together in an accurate and detailed timeline. While people have tried (and tried, and tried) to do this, it's never going to fit together perfectly, no matter what.

saying that each set of seven sages is unrelated

I don't think they're unrelated necessarily, just that they're all not the same. I mean, clearly the Sages in Twilight Princess are absolutely not the same Sages as in Ocarina of Time. That's just plainly obvious. And since we know that there's at least two sets of Sages, it's not impossible for there to be more. There's many Links and many Zeldas, and (at least as far as I'm concerned) multiple Ganondorfs, so why not multiple Sages? They don't have to be related to the others. All the Zeldas are obviously related by virtue of the Royal Family line, but there's no proof that say, the Link in Wind Waker is directly blood-related to Link from Minish Cap. They may be completely unrelated, but that doesn't mean much since there's obviously a "spiritual" connection of sorts between a kid in green named Link and the job of the Hero, whichever Hero that may be.

Either that or you have to seperate all the games to the point that almost every connection between them is a coincidence, such as having five unrelated Links, five or six Zeldas, three sets of seven sages, and perhaps two or three Ganons.

However, you also have the OPPOSITE end, which is people who say that the Links in every Zelda game are all the same Link. Yeah, I've seen that seriously proposed, that every Link in every Zelda game is the same person. This is obviously a bit of a stretch...but then again, I also think that every Ganondorf being the same person is a bit of a stretch too, but the most common theory is Ganon in every game is the same person.

In the end, after you've removed all the contradictions, do you have any real non-coincidental connections left between the games besides geography/character names, the Master Sword and Triforce, and the stained glass windows in WW?

Well yeah, depending on the games. :p Wind Waker clearly references the events of OoT in its opening, and the Hero of Time is mentioned repeatedly. In fact, if you do a "New Game +" of Wind Waker, the Hylian language that older characters speak is translated. For example, the Great Deku tree says "Has the King at long last found the Hero Of Time?" and when it becomes apparent Link can't understand ancient Hylian, he says "So ... You are not the Hero Of Time." Jabun says much the same, asking the King "If you have sought me out, it must mean you have found the Hero Of Time, does it not?"

So yeah, there are absolute non-coincidental connections between OoT and WW at least. The same is also true of LoZ/AoL, since the story for AoL mentions the events of LoZ and how it's the same Link from that game. Majora's Mask also is directly and non-coincidentally connected to OoT, so it can be confirmed to be a direct sequel.

For the others, it gets a bit harder. Like take Link's Awakening for example. The reason I (and many others) say it's the same Link from LttP is because the final boss changes forms, and two of the forms it takes resemble Agahnim and Ganon from LttP, and how Koholint is based on dreams. However, this could just be a coincidence, and Miyamoto himself has said Link's Awakening could take place anywhere. There's really no specific Link that the story has to be tied to. Same thing for Four Swords Adventures, when you see there's a powerful magic trident Ganon has stolen. It might be the same trident he uses in LttP! But, it could just be a coincidence, and doesn't really imply a connection.

I mean it's almost sort of a coincidence that Link's always wearing green. Especially when you consider that his trademark hat wasn't even a hat in the distant past, but an old wizard who'd been polymorphed into a bird-like thing.

[Midori]

I guess it was my turn to write up a long post but have it lost into the ether. Well, take #2...

I don't think they're unrelated necessarily, just that they're all not the same. I mean, clearly the Sages in Twilight Princess are absolutely not the same Sages as in Ocarina of Time. That's just plainly obvious. And since we know that there's at least two sets of Sages, it's not impossible for there to be more. There's many Links and many Zeldas, and (at least as far as I'm concerned) multiple Ganondorfs, so why not multiple Sages? They don't have to be related to the others. All the Zeldas are obviously related by virtue of the Royal Family line, but there's no proof that say, the Link in Wind Waker is directly blood-related to Link from Minish Cap. They may be completely unrelated, but that doesn't mean much since there's obviously a "spiritual" connection of sorts between a kid in green named Link and the job of the Hero, whichever Hero that may be.

That all makes sense, really. The main difference between our theories about the sages is the OoT sages being or not being the LttP backstory sages, but that's just the Imprisoning War dilemma again.

However, you also have the OPPOSITE end, which is people who say that the Links in every Zelda game are all the same Link. Yeah, I've seen that seriously proposed, that every Link in every Zelda game is the same person. This is obviously a bit of a stretch...but then again, I also think that every Ganondorf being the same person is a bit of a stretch too, but the most common theory is Ganon in every game is the same person.

I've read some of the single-Link theories back in the days before WW. It's an interesting mental exercise to try and fit the games together that way, but in the end it causes way more contradictions than I prefer to deal with. Those theories generally have to ignore facts like that the LoZ Link was not actually from Hyrule, but from neighboring Calatia. And of course WW's Link is unquestionably a different Link.

It's easier to make Ganon just one person, since he could easily have acquired some sort of immortality from magic or the Triforce of Power. Many games even state outright that Ganon's been around hundreds of years, generally under some sort of seal.

Well yeah, depending on the games. :p Wind Waker clearly references the events of OoT in its opening, and the Hero of Time is mentioned repeatedly. In fact, if you do a "New Game +" of Wind Waker, the Hylian language that older characters speak is translated. For example, the Great Deku tree says "Has the King at long last found the Hero Of Time?" and when it becomes apparent Link can't understand ancient Hylian, he says "So ... You are not the Hero Of Time." Jabun says much the same, asking the King "If you have sought me out, it must mean you have found the Hero Of Time, does it not?"

So yeah, there are absolute non-coincidental connections between OoT and WW at least. The same is also true of LoZ/AoL, since the story for AoL mentions the events of LoZ and how it's the same Link from that game. Majora's Mask also is directly and non-coincidentally connected to OoT, so it can be confirmed to be a direct sequel.

For the others, it gets a bit harder. Like take Link's Awakening for example. The reason I (and many others) say it's the same Link from LttP is because the final boss changes forms, and two of the forms it takes resemble Agahnim and Ganon from LttP, and how Koholint is based on dreams. However, this could just be a coincidence, and Miyamoto himself has said Link's Awakening could take place anywhere. There's really no specific Link that the story has to be tied to. Same thing for Four Swords Adventures, when you see there's a powerful magic trident Ganon has stolen. It might be the same trident he uses in LttP! But, it could just be a coincidence, and doesn't really imply a connection.

I also meant to say "besides games that are obvious sequels to one game", but I guess I didn't. Anyway, the sequels aren't always unambiguous themselves. For example, AoL's Link and Impa are clearly the same people as in LoZ, but Zelda has to be a different person, since AoL states she's been asleep for a really long time. The "official" ZHQ timeline makes her yet a different Zelda from all the others, but I don't see much wrong with making her the same Zelda as in LttP (if you put it before LoZ) or OoT, or some other game.

Actually, here's an interesting theory I just thought of: what if the AoL Zelda actually is the same as the LoZ Zelda, and in LoZ when you rescue her from Ganon, she's really asleep the whole time? (Of course, she's drawn standing and awake, but we could mull over that detail.) I find that theory quite interesting, because it makes me think about the game differently from how I used to.

Also, I think the main reason people say LA's Link is LttP's Link is because he has the same art style and hair color, though that could have more to do with the fact that they games were made in the same era.

[josh_manga]

I don't think this is quite a necro post, but if it is, i apologize.

I just had an alternate theory, one i think i touched on before, as to what exactly happened in OOT, again, i've not finished the game yet, but i'm looking at a video of the OOT ending.

Rauru says: "Now, open the sealed door and send the Evil Incarnation of Darkness into the void of the Evil Realm!!"

Possibly the Twilight Realm?

Anyway, it's obvious that Link doesn't kill Ganon, he's sealed away in the Evil Realm. Not the Sacred Realm.

As Link emerges from the time stream, i see one of two things happening.

1. Link arrives in the Child timeline at the exact moment he left or shortly thereafter.
2. Link arrives in the Child timeline at the exact moment he left or shortly before.

If he arrives afterward, then i think that Ganon, both future and present, are trapped in the Evil Realm, his essence combined. If Ganon were technically in transit between worlds at the moment that his future self were sealed away, it could be that the Master Sword, the key to time and dimensional travel, trapped both of them simultaneously.

If he arrives before, and when i say arrive, i don't mean physically but spiritually (his soul was trapped for 7 years in order to travel to the future, and i imagine that's how he travels to the past as well) then he could travel into the moments before he pulled out the sword without creating a physical time paradox with himself, since his physical being was not displaced, just his consciousness. So, Link comes to his senses before he pulls out the sword, which he does NOT do this time (remember, Ganon doesn't show up till after he pulls the sword out). Since Link doesn't pull out the sword, but enters the Temple AFTER Ganon already attacked Castle Town, Ganon basically has nowhere to go. He can't enter the sacred realm, and he can't just retreat back home. Eventually the King's men catch up to him and arrest him. This leads up to the events of Twilight Princess perhaps.

Now, what has me puzzled is Zelda's reaction to seeing Link at the very end of the game when he, as a child, approaches her in the garden and she looks surprised. This makes me wonder several things.

1. Has she met him yet?
2. Has Ganon played his hand yet? She was watching something intense at that window...
3. Who has the Ocarina of Time and how does Link have it in MM if he gives it to Zelda in the Future?

I guess, if Link were sent back in time before the point when he and Zelda even met, then she has the Ocarina, and Link never went on the quest for the Spiritual Stones. The problem here is that if Link never got the Spiritual stones or the Ocarina, then he couldn't have entered the inner sanctum of the Temple, which he obviously had done, but wouldn't have if he and Zelda had not met... so...

I think Ocarina of Time has the worst designed plot ever in the entire series...

[raider~joseph]

Im pretty sure Twilight Princess is a different timeline from OoT. I love that game but honestly the only connection I could find that more of a reference to Majora's Mask is Skull Kid. Thats about it. Just because the Master Sword is in a game doesn't make it on the OoT timeline. Oh wait. There is one other thing but its kinda vauge. Im pretty sure that first spirit said Link's clothes belonged to a hero but there are still a BUNCH of inconsistencies left between Twilight and OoT. The one theory I got is perhaps reincarnation over the course of the landscapes changing over the course of a few years or so. And several races vanishing.

[Nate]

I don't think this is quite a necro post, but if it is, i apologize.

The thread is over a year old.

I just had an alternate theory, one i think i touched on before, as to what exactly happened in OOT

Nintendo released an official timeline of the Zelda series in an art book called Hyrule Historia in December 2011.

http://www.zeldawiki.org/images/c/c1/ZeldatimelineHHtranslation.png

There are three distinct timelines that come from Ocarina of Time, one where Link is defeated, one where Ganondorf is sealed in the Sacred Realm, and one where Ganondorf is brought to justice before he can claim the Triforce. The first leads to Link to the Past where the Sealing War takes place with the Knights of Hyrule defending the Seven Sages as they seal Ganondorf in the Sacred Realm (since Link failed to do so), the second leads to Wind Waker, and the last leads to Twilight Princess (well and Majora's Mask but that isn't important overall to the timeline).

[raider~joseph]

So there are THREE answers?...Wow.

[josh_manga]

Wow... i guess it makes sense that in time travel and alternate dimensions we should consider the "what if" of Link losing...

Anyway, similarities between MM and TP:

Again, like anything, it's just a theory. But there are similarities between the the Twilight Mirror and the magic circles in the chamber where you begin fighting the Mask.
Also, someone noticed a similarity between the way the moon was "destroyed" and the way Wolf Link/Midna teleport.

There's also conjecture that the moon wasn't destroyed, merely displaced, and sits behind Death Mountain. (not sure i buy into this one, since i thought Termina was an alternate dimension or something.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hQrrr8VV6Q

Here's a video that discusses the similarities between MM's Dark Tribe and TP's Dark Tribe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOTvmvVbyUo

Here's a visual comparison between the Mask and the Fused Shadow.

http://fc01.deviantart.com/fs22/f/2008/004/8/d/Twilight_Majora_by_Nayru_Scholar.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=n--UKEZ3-rk#!

Anyway, i have a problem with the official time line. It places the tragedy of Zelda 1 near the end of the "Bad" timeline, where Link is defeated. But there were already Zelda's predating this tragedy. I would think that the tragedy should happen earlier in the timeline, not necessarily that the games dealing with it happen sooner, just that the event itself happens earlier.

I also see a few issues with this timeline, if Nate were correct, that Link did wish for eternal peace. This brings me back to what i said before, we don't know what Link wished for, and arguing the specificity of the wish without knowing what it was is useless. Seeing as how ALttP is relatively early in the timeline, i guess we can assume that Link doesn't wish for eternal peace, or if he did, that wish could be undone.

However, this timeline does fit with what i was saying before, that the Master Sword would sleep forever, because it does not appear in any of the games that follow in this timeline.

[Nate]

not sure i buy into this one, since i thought Termina was an alternate dimension or something.

Termina is indeed an alternate dimension, that's why people from Hyrule appear there such as Anju, and Romani and Cremia looking like Malon.

It places the tragedy of Zelda 1 near the end of the "Bad" timeline, where Link is defeated. But there were already Zelda's predating this tragedy.

It's what Miyamoto says, therefore it's Word of God.

It actually makes sense though. Hyrule in LoZ was really small, and didn't seem to have a town or castle. Ganondorf had completely transformed into Ganon and had an entire army to command, Hyrule suffered massive losses. The country was likely already in decay from the events of the Sealing War that completely wiped out the Knights of Hyrule.

This brings me back to what i said before, we don't know what Link wished for, and arguing the specificity of the wish without knowing what it was is useless. Seeing as how ALttP is relatively early in the timeline, i guess we can assume that Link doesn't wish for eternal peace, or if he did, that wish could be undone.

Yep, now that there's an official timeline, everything I said pretty much goes out the window. That's how official timelines work.

However, this timeline does fit with what i was saying before, that the Master Sword would sleep forever, because it does not appear in any of the games that follow in this timeline.

...actually, not true. The Master Sword appears in Oracle of Seasons/Ages if you are on the second game of a linked playthrough and give Farore a password when you have the Noble Sword.

[josh_manga]

Ok, i was unaware of the Master Sword being in the Oracle games. I had looked but found no reference to it.

I was always under the impression that the kingdom of Hyrule was much bigger than what we see in either LoZ or LttP. Given that the continent is huge in AoL, i assumed that Castletown would be like our Washington DC, a place of great importance, perhaps even a "cradle of civilization" of their own, but not the limit of their land.

[Banana Lobster]

Sheesh! And I thought I was a LoZ nerd! *Ahem* To business.

Now then, I must admit, in SS, I was surprised when the third region you visited was a dessert, instead of some large body of water. I was even more surprised when you found out that in the past, it was a great body of water. I must admit, I was quite fascinated with how the land changed with time, going from a great body of water, to a great dessert, and possibly back again. After all, in MM the Gerudo lived at the waters edge, instead of in the dessert where they normal reside.

Or, maybe the Forest moved out there and slowly healed the land, while it's original position became LH. After all, that is where the Water Dragon resides, and she did flood the woods once. I've also noticed that by TP, the magical woods had moved back to where the Master Sword slept, where they had been in SS. I see this as real proof that the woods move around Hyrule, healing the land with strong magic.

As for DM, it is always somewhere to the north. But, seeing as the land is magical, there is still the possibility that it does move around a little. It just doesn't move as much as the forest does. Also, in regards to SS, I guess I shouldn't be surprised now that we know where rupees came from.

But, my fellow nerds, even with all these thoughts, I must admit I have not played all the games, and my ideas are going to be flawed. Please do not hesitate to correct me where I am wrong.

Also, I know this isn't related to the Geography of the LoZ games in the least, but I was wondering, who here has thought about who became who in the games? I mean, I'm guessing the Parella from SS became the Zoras in time, and that the Kikwi from SS at some time or another became the Kokeri, but what happened to the Mogmas? Did they die out? Because the Gorons are already there, and it would be quite a stretch to think that they became the Gerudo. I think it is most likely the Demon Tribe became the legendary thieves of the dessert.

[Nate]

I was surprised when the third region you visited was a dessert

Whoa a dessert? Is it cake or ice cream? It's been taking inspiration from Kirby, having lands made entirely of sweets and desserts!

After all, in MM the Gerudo lived at the waters edge, instead of in the dessert where they normal reside.

Yeah but remember, Termina is an alternate dimension, so what the Gerudo are doing in MM has no bearing on Hyrule.

Or, maybe the Forest moved out there and slowly healed the land, while it's original position became LH. After all, that is where the Water Dragon resides, and she did flood the woods once.

Skyward Sword is super early in the Zelda timeline, in fact it's the first Zelda game in the timeline, and so it gives plenty of time for the desert to turn into what would later become the Lanayru Province in TP, where Lake Hylia and Zora's Domain are.

I'm guessing the Parella from SS became the Zoras in time, and that the Kikwi from SS at some time or another became the Kokeri, but what happened to the Mogmas?

Hyrule Historia confirms the Parella evolved into the Zora. However, the Kikwi and Mogma seem to die out. Especially since the Kokiri are the children of the Great Deku Tree, they're almost certainly not related to the Kikwi.

I think it is most likely the Demon Tribe became the legendary thieves of the dessert.

This seems unlikely given that in Four Swords Adventures the Gerudo are noble and pure-hearted.

[josh_manga]

I think TP tells us what happens to the Demon Tribe, assuming they are the same as the Interlopers.

The Mogma do remind me of something else, but if they die out, perhaps the resemblance is more of a cultural exchange rather than direct evolution between them and the Deku Scrubs.

Come to think of it, aren't the Deku Scrubs already in SS? I remember knocking their seeds back at them in the forest region.

I have always found it interesting that MC, which was the earliest game prior to SS coming out, didn't have a desert, but a swamp. Perhaps it is the mid-era between the desert becoming fertile again, but by the time of that game Lake Hyrule was already in the east, at about the same location it is in LttP.

Oh, in other news i finally got a Wii and SS, but i've not finished it yet. Don't tell me how it ends!!!

MM is an alternate dimension, but if i've learned anything from watching Fringe, its that alternate dimensions reflect alternate choices, much like these alternate timelines we've discussed. What if the Termina dimension were just another timeline, a time when things went very differently for the land and the Gerudos ended up living near water instead of the desert, even though it might have been the same geological position.